Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

Half of my family are die hard Irish catholics. They are not Rome. They also were able to stand out and speak about the many disgusting things the churches did.

‘ We sadly confirmed today that 11 of over 60 children killed by Israeli air strikes in #Gaza over the last week were participating in our programme helping them deal with trauma. All of the children between 5 and 15 years old were killed in their homes

Norwegian Refugee Council’

Just when you think it couldn’t be any more tragic 😢

We cannot forgive them (the Palestinians) for forcing us to kill their children Golda Meir

A chilling shift of intent and blame

Half of my family are die hard Irish catholics. They are not Rome. They also were able to stand out and speak about the many disgusting things the churches did

Exactly.

And before anyone jumps all over the churches comment. I really wasn’t referencing any religious aspect of the occupation. It was to highlight that the bad deeds of others did not reflect on who they were as a person. They didn’t do those bad deeds

‘ Germany has pledged €40m ($48.9m; £34.4m) in humanitarian aid for civilians in Gaza.

According to the UN more than 52,000 Palestinians have been displaced by the current violence.

German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said he would "lobby for a better humanitarian supply in Gaza" at a meeting of EU member states today.’

The inflatable at the march was an Islamic prince dressed in traditional Emirati clothing with his own face on the inflatable. Suggesting that mocking someone from a culture that isn't Jewish is somehow antisemitic really seems like a reach.

@frazzledfranny I took you to mean that your family can distinguish being a member of a faith or church, and agreeing not all its actions/inactions have been morally acceptable.

Most sane rational people should be able to distinguish right from wrong in any institution, and call it out when they see it. It doesn't mean they have to ditch their faith or allegiance to their church. It does oblige them, once they know what is wrong or injust, to change it from within however, not just keep supporting what is wrong.

If a person supports what is wrong, they are complicit in that wrongdoing.

Blackberrycream
if you refuse to acknowledge that the aims of Hamas are part of that , you are not really interested in a resolution.

Now, if I were a hypersensitive nitwit, how easily I could assume that phrase was about me personally, the you-specific rather than the you-general....

Luckily I do not take personally things which are clearly a general statement.

Nor do I refuse to acknowledge that the stated aims of Hamas are disgusting. Understandable, in the circumstances, because I can see how they were arrived at and why, but disgusting just the same. So are those of the Israeli civilians whom we saw in the link upthread saying that all the Palestinians ought to be killed, though. Both need to be re-educated, possibly with a baseball bat. Just, on the whole, not with tons of high explosive.

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return.”
David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

Acidburn comes in to say she feels personally attacked because her government are being accused of illegal activities - then posts a disgusting meme about ‘Arabs’

You couldn’t make it up.

For what it's worth, to those saying the thread should be deleted, I actually don't think it should be. Partly because there have been pockets of reasonableness and agreement in amongst all the noise, partly because it's important that everyone gets to be heard. But most of all, because it's important for this kind of subtle and insidious anti-semitism to be on display for all to see. On this thread so far we've had the full range:

• Jewish posters accused of being in the pay of Israel
• Denial of Israel's right to exist
• Israeli government committing actual genocide
• 'Oh the giant anti-semitic inflatable wasn't an image of an actual Jewish person, so it can't possibly be using anti-semitic tropes'.
• 'Bringing up anti-semitism is just a distraction from the cause of the real oppressed.' The Jews of course are never the 'real oppressed', even when they're having rockets fired at them and being abused in the streets of the UK.

Overall what's the most upsetting about it is the massive disservice it does to the important cause of Palestinian statehood that some of you here claim to support.

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.”
David Ben-Gurion May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, a Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

It’s not a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards expansion.” Ben Gurion

“Every school child knows that there is no such thing in history as a final arrangement — not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements.”
— Ben Gurion, War Diaries, 12/03/1947 following Israel’s “acceptance” of the U.N. Partition of 11/29/1947 (Simha Flapan, “Birth of Israel,” p.13)

Am I missing something, what is the point of all these David Ben-Gurion quotes exactly?

@joanneg36

Am I missing something, what is the point of all these David Ben-Gurion quotes exactly?

I think it’s pretty clear. It’s shows this was no accident. This was always going to happen.

We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population? ‘Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘ Drive them out!"
Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Partition: “after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine"
— Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.

Pretty obvious - shows intent. Shows Palestinian land was to be taken at all costs.

@joanneg36

Am I missing something, what is the point of all these David Ben-Gurion quotes exactly?

I find them really interesting.

@Frazzledfranny No, I'll say it again - criticising the actions of the Israeli government is absolutely fine. Not fine is:

• Jewish posters accused of being in the pay of Israel
• Denial of Israel's right to exist
• Israeli government committing actual genocide
• 'Oh the giant anti-semitic inflatable wasn't an image of an actual Jewish person, so it can't possibly be using anti-semitic tropes'.
• 'Bringing up anti-semitism is just a distraction from the cause of the real oppressed.' The Jews of course are never the 'real oppressed', even when they're having rockets fired at them and being abused in the streets of the UK.

I do not feel 'I am Israel', and I have literally never said that, so yet again - even implying it is highly offensive.

Literally no-one on this thread is denying that the Israelis took Palestinian land and that is a historic injustice. Not one person that I've seen. We don't need 300 quotes from Ben-Gurion to prove it.

None of this changes the fact that modern Israelis should be allowed to live in their country free from the threat of terrorism.

5 October 1937, Ben-Gurion wrote in a letter to his 16 year old son Amos: “We must expel the Arabs and take their places…. And, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places- then we have force at our disposal.”