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Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

999 replies

Faffandahalf · 16/05/2021 09:28

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 15:01

I think you'll find it is. Inflatable Jewish caricatures complete with big noses and horns at a pro Palestine demo in London

It's been said over and over again this was not a caricature of a Jew - it was an Arab!

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 15:03

The so called Jewish caricature was an Arab - Mohamed bin Zayed.

anemona · 18/05/2021 15:05

@Frazzledfranny

It’s not antisemitic to critique the land grab by the Israeli state. No one has asked fir the destruction of Israel. Your the only person on this thread that is saying it. Why?

Posters just want Israel to stop advancing.

Many Jewish people have spoke out and made documentaries in protest against what Israel are doing.

Maybe you believe that Judaism is a nationality and that’s why you find it hard to not conflate the two. Many Jewish dont have that opinion.

"No-one has asked for the destruction of Israel."

Er, except Hamas, who state they aim for global genocide of all Jews.

You forgot to mention that bit.

How strange that you'd just overlook that. Hmm

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 15:07

The Genocide of the Palestinian People

An International Law and Human Rights Perspective

While there has been recent criticism of those taking the position that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians, there is a long history of human rights scholarship and legal analysis that supports the assertion. Prominent scholars of the international law crime of genocide and human rights authorities take the position that Israel’s policies toward the Palestinian people could constitute a form of genocide. Those policies range from the 1948 mass killing and displacement of Palestinians to a half- century of military occupation and, correspondingly, the discriminatory legal regime governing Palestinians, repeated military assaults on Gaza, and official Israeli statements expressly favoring the elimination of Palestinians.
Genocide is a term that has both sociological and legal meaning. The term genocide was coined in 1944 by a Jewish Polish legal scholar, Raphael Lemkin. For Lemkin, “the term does not necessarily signify mass killings.” He explained:
More often [genocide] refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.1
Since Lemkin’s first invocation of the term, it has gained political, social, and legal meaning. For political scientists, historians, and sociologists, genocide is “understood as a major type of collective violence, with a distinctive place in the spectrum of political violence, armed conflict, and war, of which it is usually seen as a part.”2

Centre for Constitutional Rights

anemona · 18/05/2021 15:08

@StoneofDestiny

The so called Jewish caricature was an Arab - Mohamed bin Zayed.
It was an Arab who has made peace with Israel so was caricatured with classic antisemitic imagery - horns, red eyes, hook nose, bloodied hands.

Don't be disingenuous.

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 15:11

anemona no one on this thread has asked for the destruction of Israel. Are we all Hamas now?

The civilian people are not Hamas. This thread is about the civilian people in Palestine.

I think you have trouble with conflating Jewish religion and Israeli government and Palestinian civilians with Hamas.

I repeat no one on this thread has asked for the destruction of Israel.

I repeat Palestinian civilians are not Hamas.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 15:11

Israel is a serial human rights international law abuser. The UN Human Rights Commission affirms that it violates nearly all 149 articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which governs the treatment of civilians in war and under occupation, and is guilty of grievous war crimes.1 Imagine life under these conditions: Living in limbo under a foreign occupier; having no selfdetermination, no right of return, and no power over your daily life; being in constant fear, economically strangled, and collectively punished; having your free movement denied by enclosed population centers, closed borders, regular curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, electric fences, and separation walls; having your homes regularly demolished and land systematically stolen to build settlements for encroachers in violation of international law prohibiting an occupier from settling its population on conquered land; having your right to essential services denied—emergency health care, education, employment, and enough food and clean water; being forced into extreme poverty, having your crops destroyed, and being victimized by punitive taxes; having no right for redress in the occupier’s courts under laws only protecting the occupier; being regularly targeted by incursions and attacks on the ground and from the air; being wilfully harassed, ethnically cleansed, arrested, incarcerated, tortured, and slaughtered on any pretext, including for your right of self-defence; having no rights on your own land in your own country for over six decades and counting; vilified for being Muslims and called terrorists, Jihadists, crazed Arabs, and fundamentalist extremists. Victimized by slow-motion genocide to destroy you

From Israel's Slow Motion Genocide in Palestine

mowglika · 18/05/2021 15:13

Completely reaching @anemona if you had looked into it you would know Mohamed bin zayed is often called the devil or Satan of Arabs. That’s the imagery you are seeing and the hook nose caricature is not exclusive to Jews, Arabs have similar noses as does the man himself who is being caricatured. Completely misunderstood the protest whether through looking for anti semetism where there wasn’t any or wilful ignorance.

Xenia · 18/05/2021 15:17

Dreadful to see the supposedly impartial Met police have a female muslim officer who thought it was okay to indicate support for one side but not for the other.

CounsellorTroi · 18/05/2021 15:17

[quote joanneg36]**@GoingOnABarHunt* Do you genuinely, really* believe that the Israeli government is committing genocide? Genocide? i.e. you believe they are intentionally trying to murder every member of an entire ethnic group? Really?[/quote]
I do believe their ultimate aim is to drive the Palestinians out of Palestine, just as it is Hamas's aim to destroy Israel. that's what their actions look like.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 15:20

@frazzledfranny If no-one is calling for the destruction of Israel, what does 'a one-state solution' mean exactly?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 18/05/2021 15:29

There are a few on this thread who make me tired.

"Palestinian children are in want, and are dying and being killed. We should try to work out what to do to help them."

"So were Rwandans/indigenous Americans/you name it.
"Oh look! Elvis!"

anemona · 18/05/2021 15:46

@StoneofDestiny - interesting article.

But strange that it nowhere mentions that Hamas explicitly states in its founding charter that it is committed to the genocide of all Jews globally.

Do you have an article that talks about that too?

Or are we all supposed to stay quiet about that attempted genocide of Jews by Hamas?

anemona · 18/05/2021 15:50

@CounsellorTroi

So you believe something negative about Israel, with no evidence, but you believe it anyway?

I am shocked I tell you, shocked.

What about Hamas' explicit stated aim (in its founding charter) to murder all Jews around the world?

What action do you think the world should take to address that?

Zotter · 18/05/2021 15:50

The British mandate for Palestine was specifically designed to allow a Jewish homeland to be created. This was at the expense of Palestinians who owned, lived and worked in this land. It was taken from them. This action is not sanctioned by ANY religious script in my opinion.

@justfedupofthis, the UN in 1947, building on from the U.K. 1917 Balfour Declaration and a 1939 white paper by the British, proposed dividing the area that is now the State of Israel and occupied territories into a Jewish state and a separate Arab state. The Jewish population in Palestine as you say grew rapidly from from around 5-8% in the 1880s whilst under Ottoman rule to 32% by 1947 under the British Mandate, according to various sources.

This was due to the emergence of modern Zionism in the late 19th century in Central and Eastern Europe as a national revival movement, both in reaction to persecution (pogroms) and as I read ‘a response to Haskalah, or Jewish Enlightenment.’ I imagine awful persecution was the driving force. In Zionist history, the different waves of Jewish settlement since 1880s are known as "aliyah".

On 14 May 1948, on the day the last British forces left from Haifa the Jewish population recognised the UN partition plan and proclaimed the establishment of a Jewish state to be known as the State of Israel. However, citing from wiki, ‘the Arab League members Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq refused to accept the UN partition plan and proclaimed the right of self-determination for the Arabs across the whole of Palestine. The Arab states marched their forces into what had, until the previous day, been the British Mandate for Palestine, starting the first Arab–Israeli War.’ Israel successfully pushed the Arab armies out and conquered some of the territory that had been included in the proposed Arab state. Egyptians retained the Gaza strip and Jordanian forces remained in the West Bank, where the British had stationed them before the war. Jordan annexed the areas it occupied while Egypt kept Gaza as an occupied zone. So surrounding Arab countries did not serve the Palestinian Arabs well either. I read a Palestinian author say hindsight showed Palestinian Arabs would’ve been best served by accepting the partition but surrounding Arab countries didn’t want them to.

In the 1967 war Israel won and occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Due to surrounding Arab countries not accepting a Jewish state and the rise of Palestinian nationalism I think Israel became too scared to allow a separate Arab state that may turn on them. Decades of strife have followed with the population of the Palestinian occupied terroritries suffering the most by far though Israelis have had their share of suffering. It’s all a mess and v sad. As I wrote earlier whilst Israeli prime minister Netanhayu is in power and Hamas in Gaza there will be no chance of working towards peace.

I would be interested in seeing the source for the 5% figure you quote, and if correct, the composition of the remaining 95%.

@anemona, this wiki page outlines the demographic history of Palestine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) and www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

anemona · 18/05/2021 15:51

@mowglika

Completely reaching *@anemona* if you had looked into it you would know Mohamed bin zayed is often called the devil or Satan of Arabs. That’s the imagery you are seeing and the hook nose caricature is not exclusive to Jews, Arabs have similar noses as does the man himself who is being caricatured. Completely misunderstood the protest whether through looking for anti semetism where there wasn’t any or wilful ignorance.
It's all just an amazing coincidence.

At the same protest where people were filmed chanting genocidal chants against Jews.

All just an amazing coincidence.

anemona · 18/05/2021 15:52

Thanks @Zotter

anemona · 18/05/2021 16:04

@Frazzledfranny

anemona no one on this thread has asked for the destruction of Israel. Are we all Hamas now?

The civilian people are not Hamas. This thread is about the civilian people in Palestine.

I think you have trouble with conflating Jewish religion and Israeli government and Palestinian civilians with Hamas.

I repeat no one on this thread has asked for the destruction of Israel.

I repeat Palestinian civilians are not Hamas.

I was accused in a now deleted post of having committed ethnic cleansing!

I am not the person on this thread who is having trouble with conflating Jewish people and the Israeli government!

It would be funny if it weren't quite chilling.

anemona · 18/05/2021 16:10

Meanwhile, Jewish students at UCL in London are getting death threats including one saying "there will be a lot of Muslim students waiting for you".

The kind of hateful talk in this thread literally puts British Jews at risk. Think before you type accusing British Jews of undertaking ethnic cleansing or supporting genocide.

jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/ucl-investigates-death-threats-to-jewish-students/

piddocktrumperiness · 18/05/2021 16:22

That's awful! I am so sorry that whenever the Israeli govt does something, British Jews feel (and Jews everywhere but I'm responding to above post) under attack and feel they should answer for those actions. The conflation is ridiculous. It's awful and brings quite a bit of anti semitism to the surface. It seems like there is a tarnishing of a people for the actions of a few. Many Jewish people and Palestinians are working towards peace and this sends usual back.
It's disgusting, and should be stopped.
It also perpetuates falsehoods on all parts which is not helping anyone.

piddocktrumperiness · 18/05/2021 16:23

*sends us all back

Sorry for the typos

AzraiL · 18/05/2021 16:28

Hamas is a symptom of the conflict, not the cause. The bloodshed occurred long before Hamas came along.

Acidburn · 18/05/2021 16:28

@piddocktrumperiness the problem is - most of the time those hateful people are silent. But when stuff like this happens - they show their true colours. It also doesn't help that the majority of them turn out to be muslims.

Blackberrycream · 18/05/2021 16:28

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

There are a few on this thread who make me tired.

"Palestinian children are in want, and are dying and being killed. We should try to work out what to do to help them."

"So were Rwandans/indigenous Americans/you name it.
"Oh look! Elvis!"

Those examples were brought up as examples of difficult situations that were resolved to some extent, by people on this thread who would actually like to see a resolution. If you want to actually look around that’s a whole different matter. That hasn’t been brought up but since you asked... Go to the genocidewatch website. Israel is on the list but not at the emergency level of many others. That’s still not acceptable in any way. Hamas is listed as a concern in the area too because of their stated aims and influence.
mowglika · 18/05/2021 16:30

^ It's all just an amazing coincidence.

At the same protest where people were filmed chanting genocidal chants against Jews.

All just an amazing coincidence.^

The words stubborn and wilful spring to mind.

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