To refuse to sell this lady a puppy?

[ensete]

I have a litter of working golden retrievers, i collated a waiting list before I had our bitch mated and I spent a long time speaking to interested parties to find the best homes I could do - this is how I have dealt with previous litters.
Both parents are working gundogs and I stated that whilst I didn't need working homes I would only consider active homes with the space to accommodate a large working breed.
One of the families who is on my list contacted me today just to say "hi, my husband and I have decided to split up, I will still be wanting the puppy but my address will now by Flat4a XYZ Town"
I messaged back to enquire what sort of set up it was and she confirmed it's a flat on the top floor with no garden or outside space. I've confirmed with her that I'm not happy to sell a puppy to a home without any outside space and I will refund her deposit immediately and advertise the puppy. She's refusing to give me her bank details and says she wants the pup and will take legal action if required. My argument is that the home I vetted is no longer the home she's offering and therefore I'm not willing to sell her the puppy. To me, changing the home on offer isn't dissimilar to her changing the amount of money she is willing to pay for the pup. The homes I find for puppies are very important to me, I'm not a big breeder, I've just had a litter for my own purposes to keep the next generation and I need to know my puppies are going to the right sort of home.

It seems to me that she might be going through emotional disturbance at the moment because of her marriage break up, and wants to transfer her need to show affection to a puppy who will not answer back. Even if she had a garden that would not be good grounds for having a new puppy.

Have you considered asking the RSPCA to visit her and check the accommodation?

If you tell her that you have done that, she may not want to insist on having the puppy after all, if there is a chance that the RSPCA might keep tabs on her. Because you refuse to sell your pup to her does not mean she will not try for a puppy elsewhere.

@Viviennemary

I dong reallh approve of this commercialised breeding for money

What do you think the rspca do when they have pets that need rehoming, give them away? DEFINITELY NOT! They get a much money for them as they possibly can and I know this for FACT!

Good update! Don't stick your hand in the crazy.

I cant help wondering if she wanted the dog, with him having paid the deposit and possibly getting him to pay the balance, to then sell it on.... just a thought.

Glad that its all sorted.

We are desperate for a Golden Retriever and have a large garden, but we have health issues and until they are resolved we would never have one, it's not fair on the dog. They need caring for properly so no way would I let her have the dog, it's a huge commitment and a flat is no good for a large dog.

@Thelnebriati

^For various reasons, giving away puppies isnt recommended by animal welfare organisations.

Apart from that, reputable breeders have to pay for genetic testing and the increase in food and vet bills for the gestation, delivery, and 8 weeks raising the litter.^

It's very rare for puppies to still be with the breeder/mum at 8 weeks of age although I totally agree with everything else you say here.

The majority of people just don't realise how much work and expense goes into producing these gorgeous animals that will bring so much joy to others.

I used to breed pedigree cats (over 10yrs ago) and one weekend two of my cats had to have cesareans because they were struggling with large kittens. The two surgeries alone cost me in excess of £3,000 and that was before I'd taken all the other expenses into consideration.

The GCCF (cat equivalent of the Kennel Club) dictates that pedigree kittens have to stay with their mum until they're 13 weeks old (breeders can and will be struck off the authorised list of they release kittens sooner), which means they stand a better chance of being properly weaned and litter trained but for the breeder this means even more expense because on top of everything a dog breeder has to pay out, there's an extra 5-6 weeks they have to look after/feed them and then the kittens have to have received both doses of their vaccinations before going to their new homes!

Granted, cats and kittens are smaller than Golden Retrievers so are cheaper to feed etc but even if compared to a small dog, it's the extra time and the jabs that really add up for them.

My kittens used to sell for £700 each but by the time I'd paid all the expenses (for a normal litter not including cesarean births) I was only getting about £200 for all the work and effort that goes into raising each kitten for 3 months. Put surgery into the equation and for a litter of 5 I was £100 out of pocket for each kitten.

For those who disagree with breeding, all animals will have been bred (intentionally or otherwise) just by the simple fact that they exist, but not all breeders are in it for the money, I'm sure the OP will agree that she breeds and sells her puppies with the intention of them giving others as much joy and happiness as they give her, I know that was my motivation when I was breeding my cats.

Years ago my dog had puppies and I advertised them and vetted people before handing the puppies over. However when one woman came to collect a puppy I got a really bad vibe but it was based on a gut feeling so in the end I handed the puppy over. I have regretted to this day and it still troubles me even though I have no real basis for feeling something was wrong. Don’t let her have the puppy. Stick to your guns and live peacefully with your decision.

It's very rare for puppies to still be with the breeder/mum at 8 weeks of age although I totally agree with everything else you say here

As 8 weeks is the minimum age for selling a puppy , so it is extremely,common for puppies to still be at the breeder (force majeure, such as serious illness of the dam can mean puppies go early, because it might in those circumstances be the puppies best interests)

Some breeders keep to 12 weeks, especially breed enthusiasts who have only an occasional litter. The extra time with their mothers is beneficial

OP: you'd done the right thing. Did her STBXH say he would tell her that contract is ended and refund received, or is that your remaining bit of admin?

Absolutely the right thing to do. If she can’t cope the dogs will end up back with you or in a rescue with behaviour problems. She could possibly make it work, as some have suggested, but it’s not fair to take that chance with a puppy. Especially given her attitude - which doesn’t sound pleasant and certainly doesn’t sound like she’s putting the needs of the dog first - by still wishing to take on a working breed in a flat. I have a working breed dog and I can’t imagine him being stuck in a flat. He is walked 4 times a day, we have a garden and still has energy to spare. Regarding the legal action, there has been no ‘loss’ to her if you return the deposit, so that would be laughed out. Send a cheque.

@wetotter

It's very rare for puppies to still be with the breeder/mum at 8 weeks of age although I totally agree with everything else you say here

As 8 weeks is the minimum age for selling a puppy , so it is extremely,common for puppies to still be at the breeder (force majeure, such as serious illness of the dam can mean puppies go early, because it might in those circumstances be the puppies best interests)

Some breeders keep to 12 weeks, especially breed enthusiasts who have only an occasional litter. The extra time with their mothers is beneficial

OP: you'd done the right thing. Did her STBXH say he would tell her that contract is ended and refund received, or is that your remaining bit of admin?

Yup, the golden retrievers we had were all 12 weeks old and they were fantastic puppies. Those extra few weeks were extremely beneficial to them. They settled so easily and weren’t distressed at all.

But we had comments of “but didn’t you want a tiny puppy?” Um, no, I’d prefer a happy one.

@llizzie

It seems to me that she might be going through emotional disturbance at the moment because of her marriage break up, and wants to transfer her need to show affection to a puppy who will not answer back. Even if she had a garden that would not be good grounds for having a new puppy.

Have you considered asking the RSPCA to visit her and check the accommodation?

If you tell her that you have done that, she may not want to insist on having the puppy after all, if there is a chance that the RSPCA might keep tabs on her. Because you refuse to sell your pup to her does not mean she will not try for a puppy elsewhere.

I can’t imagine a scenario where the rspca would respond to a call for a welfare check where there is no animal in residence

I'm happy that it was resolved OP.

So refreshing to read about a responsible breeder. I'm so glad it's resolved happily (although I imagine there will be some interesting conversations between the ex spouses!)

I have an almost 7 year old goldie and she boards with the breeder when we go on holiday - so she gets to spend two weeks with her mum and sister and we get to have a relaxing break knowing she's in the best hands. The thought of her in a top floor flat being left alone all day is heartbreaking - you've done absolutely the right thing.

Reading this thread I don't think some people realise how big a difference there is between the working and show lines of the same breed.

I've had a working breed in a (temporary) flat and it was a nightmare, even with some communal outdoor space and frequent walks (more than a once a day dog Walker).

You absolutely did the right thing OP.

Fantastic update (though I do wonder if “send the cheque” will be the new cancel the cheque 🤣)

TBH even if she’d ended up in a bigger house with a garden, I still wouldn’t feel right selling her the puppy - if she thought the flat was the right environment for a working dog she wouldn’t be a responsible owner. Well done for sticking to your guns. I’m not a dog person but having heard so much about unscrupulous breeders it’s lovely to read how you care so much about the litters you breed

I think most people also don’t realise just how mad a GR puppy is, especially a working one. They see the older, settled dogs and assume that’s how the puppies are as well.

I don’t have GRs, but my grandmother did, and the puppies were mental. Stubborn, biltey and hyperactive, incredibly cute though.

Reading this thread I don't think some people realise how big a difference there is between the working and show lines of the same breed.

They really don’t.

My family didn’t until they saw my working line and show line GRs together. Massive difference in look and temperament and size. My working line girl was absolutely massive.

Both lovely wonderful dogs, but my girl from a show line was bread for beauty, not brains, bless her I used to have to carry her over muddy puddles as she refused to get wet or dirty while my working line dog only had to see a field and was covered head to toe and was overjoyed by it, you could see her disappointment as she was cleaned off.

Also, my show line girl was happy as long as she was being stroked or brush and told she was beautiful. Working line dog had to be busy.

Excellent update. And for the posters who say that she could have a legal case, given the puppy was paid for by the husband and he has knowingly accepted the return of the deposit she has absolutely no leg to stand on.

@Alexapissoff

Reading this thread I don't think some people realise how big a difference there is between the working and show lines of the same breed.

They really don’t.

My family didn’t until they saw my working line and show line GRs together. Massive difference in look and temperament and size. My working line girl was absolutely massive.

Both lovely wonderful dogs, but my girl from a show line was bread for beauty, not brains, bless her I used to have to carry her over muddy puddles as she refused to get wet or dirty while my working line dog only had to see a field and was covered head to toe and was overjoyed by it, you could see her disappointment as she was cleaned off.

I've always had workers (mainly spaniels but currently labs) and everyone thinks the labs are cross breeds as they are so fit (and my girl is red)

I'm glad you got that sorted out with her husband. I knew someone like you, but in her case, they were German Shepherds, and she would have done the same as you. My last dog was a Golden Retriever, and I can't imagine life with him without access to a garden....especially in that first (lovely) mad year when he was in to everything, and chewed so many things, despite me being at home all the time. Happy days!

If the split was acrimonious I can see the DH rubbing his hands together at getting the deposit back and denying her the dog.

That said you absolutely did the right thing.

I'm glad you checked the deposit details and didn't send a cheque to her and the refund has gone to the right person.

That puppy is lucky to have you making good decisions about it's future family and home.

@AdobeWanKenobi

If the split was acrimonious I can see the DH rubbing his hands together at getting the deposit back and denying her the dog.

That said you absolutely did the right thing.

I do feel a bit for the woman here - ex-DH has the farm and she has a flat with no garden, and she doesn't even have a dog for company. But that still doesn't make her, or her flat, fit to keep a dog, so I am very glad the OP did the absolutely right thing in refusing her the puppy.

@Alexapissoff

Also, my show line girl was happy as long as she was being stroked or brush and told she was beautiful. Working line dog had to be busy.

Working and show are not the same. Very few seem to understand the difference. You’ve explained it really well. It’s almost like they are sub-breeds of the same breed.

Working dogs do not make good family pets, they get bored so easily. If you want a dog to be happy with 1-2 walks a day and then potter about the house don’t get a working dog.

That said, flats are no places for any breed of dog. Unless it’s a ground floor with a big garden at a push.