You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

Very reasonable(!) map from Al Jazeera. Oddly, it seems to have missed out a few fairly significant points:

1. Transjordan was well over half of the mandate by area but was given to the Arabs in 1921(and no Jews allowed to live there)
2. the Palestinian leader spent most of WWII in Berlin, where he spent his time planning anti-semitic and anti-British revolts
3. the neighbouring Arab states declared war on the new Israeli state in 1947 and tried to strangle it at birth. If they hadn't, there would have been a 2 state solution
4. Jews were ethnically cleansed from much of Jerusalem in 1948. This is part of the current issue in Sheikh Jarrah
5. the 1967 war wasn't an aggressive campaign by the israelis. It was a failed attempt by the neighbours and the Palestinians to wipe Israel off the map

I have never been on a forum about Palestine on mumsnet so I really don’t know what went on, but if there is to be a political discussion then it can’t be one sided and should be based, as far as possible, on facts on both sides.

I think sometimes mumsnet, although some great, passionate discussions, is heavy on opinion and light on evidence. That is a can of worms if there is a potentially volatile debate which has consequences outside of it. So perhaps mumsnet needs to heavily moderate these and ensure that any assertions are backed up with evidence? Otherwise there is potential for harm.

@JustFedUpOfThis 👏

Palestine was part of the British Empire as Mandatory Palestine, for some historical context.

Don't muddy the issue with inconvenient facts, @SamG76

I don't disagree with any of that @Faffandahalf.

If you'll allow me:

Yes but peace seems to mean the Palestinians giving in to their own ethnic cleansing. Yes. That will inevitable be part of it. Allowing that the past will become the past that individuals may never be brought to accoint. Having a trust in the future. Both Israal and Palestine have to do that, at the same time, and to be honestly invested in it.

How can there be peace when Israel are never ever ever held accountable for their actions? I wholeheartedly agree. But that isn't a real world solution. You would also have ask about the various Arab countries in earlier years, the US, Russia etc.. If one party is to be held accountable then ALL parties must be - that's how human nature and diplomacy works. And there are plenty of Arab countres who will also need to apologise for their actions - and the US, Russia, the UK etc etc etc

What purpose does peace serve Israel? None. Really? I am not sure that is at wholly true! It does seem to be the current viewpoint of Israel - and one I personally have a lot of agreement with. But to be relevant to peace resolving that to has form part of a solution. Understandign why Israel as a state believes as it does has to form part of any peace accord.

It doesn’t need peace. It has the power to annihilate Palestinians which it slowly doing while the world watches And sometimes Palestine has the power to effectively strike back, and does! You have to be able to satisfy all sides that the other is acting honestly...

Those onlookers need to do more - have always needed to do more.

For there to be peace there needs to be sanctions placed on Israel to force them to come to the table. This has happened in the past. And has been destrityed by Isreal, Palestine and other Arab countries, with and without the collusion of Western countries.

If peace is the objective then blame has to be acknowledged but then willingly set aside. Reparation can only be n monetary terms, rehousng, rbuilding etc. It can't include loss of face, acceptance of blame etc. That just doesn't work - as is evidenced across the world in far too many countries.

What IS the solution to this? What does the end product look like and what is the firts step towards it?

Whoever works that out will be hailed as the greatest actual rather than theoretical peacemaker the world has ever known, and it will be replicated in hundreds of paces across the world.

Perhaps they get deleted because of comments like ' Israel is committing genocide'.

Israel is not committing genocide. Whatever the wrongs of what is happening, that is not happening.

@Faffandahalf . "When you are an oppressed minority with no help from the outside world you don’t have much choice" No help from the outside world? Are you aware that "Palestine" get more financial aid per capita than ANY other refugee population or country on earth? A very large proportion is funded by Israel themselves. Unfortunately their leaders prefer to spend it on rockets and tunnels than infrastructure. And I am not saying that the people there are not suffering, they are, and it's terrible and Israel have a lot to answer for, but you 1. can't completely blame Israel for it and 2. claim they get no help

@JustFedUpOfThis

Yes that is true and shows just how complicated the sitiation there is

It’s an utter clusterfuck with no obvious solution but we need to acknowledge the horrific failures of the British, working with the Zionists, towards the Palestinian people. And their actions have had consequences ever since. The government of Israel continues that failure and oppression. Totally agree.

As someone whose grandad was evicted from his grandparents home in Haifa, in 1947/1948.. I would like to ask posters to try avoid being dragged into the debate of whether Palestine existed historically or not.

The people you are talking to aren’t looking for answers . They’re looking to provoke a response that will help them justify why they need to be offended so that they can shut this debate down.

They have more exposure to the history in the region than you do. They’re not missing any facts. They’re just interpreting the historic facts from their own perspective with a bit of moral justification and rewriting of history.

It is very important that debate is maintained on the human side of the situation and not on “who deserves to have the land”.. “who got there first”..

What’s important is that those actions need to be scrutinised and no one should be above the rules of humanity. And any political talk at the moment is an offensive distraction.

Thank you for the info on friendsofalaqsa op, much appreciated. Very well said @Greenmarmalade.

@JustFedUpOfThis you forgot to include the cleansing of 850k Jews from Arab countries during the 1970s. These countries literally have no jews left living in them and no one has accused them of ethnic cleansing

@DeepThinkingGirl That complexity is what keeps this a very emotive subject isn't it?

The humanity of the issue is, as you say, the most important factor.

@PickAChew wow, is that a reference to Jews control the media? Jesus

Oh! Is that what that was? @Bells3032

Ye gods!

@Bells3032

What Palestine needs is meaningful support. They need the international community to stand up and say "Enough".

However, Israel has powerful friends who will never do that. They turn a blind eye.

I'm in full agreement with you

What does the end product look like and what is the firts step towards it?

The end product looks like whole load of people going about their daily lives in relative peace. No doubt terrorism will continue to exist as will groups with a vested interest in keeping the conflict going. But these groups will no longer have the power they once had.

The first step is to stop the land grabs. All they do is increase tension.

@samG76

Could you post a source about the 1967 war? Just not what I’ve ever learned.

Would you say the Wikipedia description is innacurate?

‘In the aftermath of the war, Israel had crippled the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian militaries, having killed over 20,000 troops while losing fewer than 1,000 of its own. The Israeli success was the result of a well-prepared and enacted strategy, the poor leadership of the Arab states, and their poor military leadership and strategy. Israel seized the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria.’

@JustFedUpOfThis, it's interesting isn't it that by the time of his death in 1919 at the Paris Peace Conference, Sir Mark Sykes was u-turning on his support for a Jewish state in Palestine. I think he knew it wasn't the neat solution he had portrayed it as being during the midst of the Great War.

Lawrence and Bell meanwhile were pushing away at diplomats and the press for a hearing for greater Arab self-determination.

And between 1919 and 1921, Lloyd George, Churchill and Woodrow Wilson were ... themselves.

• What Palestine needs is meaningful support. They need the international community to stand up and say "Enough".

However, Israel has powerful friends who will never do that. They turn a blind eye.*

YES

@FromHereToModernity that is not a map of the Mandate of Palestine. That is a map of Israel with Palestine written on it. Mandate of Palestine was much larger and covered what is now Jordan. It was split into Israel for the Jewish and Jordan for the Arabs.

No one is denying the Palestine used to exist. it did, that's historical fact. You cannot claim that it does exist now. that's the difference. Some believe it does and that's their right to but you can't claim it as fact. it's the same as talking about Austria-Hungary, Czechoslovakia or the Ottoman Empire in current terms

what "powerful friends" would these be, Cherrycee. there doesn't seem to be much blind eye turning - this has been in the news for a week, with more more space devoted to it than dozens of girls being blown up in Afghanistan, massacre sin Burma, etc