You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

[dreamingbohemian]

But you can't set aside the history. It may be tempting for us here in the UK to do that (especially as the history is not particularly well known). But the conflict narratives on both sides use history to legitimise their actions, to justify violence. So it's not irrelevant.

Personally I don't think a negotiated settlement is possible. The conflict is too zero-sum. The two-state solution put forward in the 1990s was the last chance, but it's been superseded by 20 years of settlements and demographic changes, by Arab and Muslim states normalising relations with Israel.

The conflict will rumble on until either the US withdraws its unconditional support (which could happen, but not in the near term) or there is some kind of catastrophic bloodbath (either by Israel vs the Palestinians, or an Israeli-Iranian war that sets the whole region on fire).

[Faffandahalf]

I agree that the leaders of the Muslim/Arab world have been shameful in their actions and relationship with Israel at the expense of Palestine.

And you’re right the history is too dense and too entrenched.

[Bells3032]

@Faffandahalf when did i say anything you said was antisemitic? I did not say that you saying Israel is carrying out ethnic cleansing is antisemitic. it's wrong but it isn't antisemitic. I was referring to people saying things like "well it's because rich and powerful people controlling the media" which are crossing the line. As said i don't believe the people saying this intend to be antisemitic, i believe they just don't understand the historical meaning of these phrases.

I have not said a single statement on here against Israel has been antisemitic.

[ChairmansReserve]

@LolaSmiles

@PickAChew wow, is that a reference to Jews control the media? Jesus
Alternatively it's a reference to the fact that those with money and influence are able to influence the media, which is hardly a controversial statement unless you genuinely want to claim that those with money and influence have zero influence on media coverage and political decisions.

Who is it that apparently 'has money and influence' that they are using to control what Mumsnet posters say, 'Lola'?

[DeepThinkingGirl]

But you can't set aside the history. It may be tempting for us here in the UK to do that (especially as the history is not particularly well known). But the conflict narratives on both sides use history to legitimise their actions, to justify violence. So it's not irrelevant.

I think setting down some basic boundaries for coexistence between two people who have a history of animosity doesn’t require any historic context.

It is fundamental and basic to expect civilians not be targeted.. children not be targeted . Places of worship and worshippers not be attacked. People not be expelled from their homes and lands. Lands not be stolen from people you have a treaty with.

These are boundaries people usually have even with their own enemy state.

People don’t need to take sides on whatever narrative of this complicated history. We all know history is written by the powerful.

But regardless of who did what and who started what, whoever is breaking those moral boundaries of humanity needs to be held accountable .

[samG76]

Everyone is talking as if there is an obvious solution. But there isn't. Suppose Israel withdrew from the W. bank and Golan heights, and Hamas took over the former and Hezbollah the latter. Does anyone think things would improve. Part of the reason that the Israeli left has been destroyed is that people look at Gaza and think that this would be a model for the West Bank if the Israelis withdrew.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

However, people just living peacefully makes this sound so simple when it isn't. you have generations of hurt, generations brought up to see each other as the enemy. Both have done terrible things to each other and neither have it in their power to forgive each other - even if they wanted to.

I didn't mean to make it sound simple, I was answering the question about what the end will look like. And that it is entirely possible to resolve the situation.

The shift of power away from those with a vested interest in continuing the conflict to those investing in a peaceful future will take time. In the end, people don't have to forgive eachother, they just have to see eachother as having equal protection under the law.

[Bibidy]

I agree, not sure why it's constantly deleted when other equally as inflammatory topics are left alone.

[IconUcon]

My Jewish friends are divided between the ones who think Israel can do no wrong and Palestinians are all terrorists and the ones who are embarrassed at what they see as Israel’s bullying and violent overreaction.
No one is in between, it’s either or.

[DeepThinkingGirl]

But the conflict narratives on both sides use history to legitimise their actions, to justify violence. So it's not irrelevant.

Hold both sides, to equal standards of moral boundaries in peace and war then.

We are talking about governments here.

As someone of Palestinian heritage, I am happy for Palestinian governments (which they already are) to be held accountable to the same moral standards that the world holds Israeli government. And vice versa.

This isn’t about creating long term peace and getting down to the psychology of the populations involved.

We are talking about a government here. No one cares what they psychologically believe about what narrative of history.

That’s all arguments designed to dampen any opportunity for a unified front against apartheid.

I care very deeply for the history. And I believe in a narrative very different to what most people beleive. Mostly narrated to me by people who were part of the experience as that’s my heritage.

But I still don’t think this is at all a relevant debate unless we are discussing the Palestinians right to return to their homeland ?! Or a long term political solution?

What we are discussing now is, why is no one able to say NO to Israel and halt support when they violate UN convention on human rights.


It’s really not a deep topic. It’s really that simple

[FromHereToModernity]

The St John Eye Hospital is in Sheikh Jerrah. I hope it's safe.

It already operates as a bridge for peace.

[Bells3032]

@DeepThinkingGirl i agree with you that people have the right not be attacked in their home. but the same has to be also said for Israelis. Rockets are purposely aim for civilian areas, bombings have literally taken place on school buses or pizza places filled with children, rocks are thrown from the west bank at passing israeli cars. it is not a one sided war here. Israel have better weapons but they are not the only guilty party.

Pretty sure there's not currently a treaty in place between them. An amnesty at times yes but no treaty.

I also think you're wrong to say that most enemy states don't attack people's homes or places or worship. Look at all the bombings of churches, mosques and hindu temples around the world. The UK purposely attacked civilian homes in the Blitzkrieg during WW2. War doesn't mean you be nice to the other side's civilians. that concept went a long time ago.

[Neonprint]

I have always felt very strongly against what Israel is doing to palastine. It was one of the first political issues I was aware of. So I don't disagree with loads of what is said. Israel is occupying a county.

However it is inextricably linked with antisemitism and one thing I feel about people who are activists for this cause from the left. Is why this issue? Why this cause? When genocide, ethnic cleansing and occupation are happening in other places?

Obviously there are things which make this particular hard to stomach, for example how other countries and the in condone it. But honestly I do think for many people there is a link to the antisemitic view of Jewish people as politically powerful.

And this is said cing from a very socialist, pro Palestine point of view.

[FromHereToModernity]

I don't think Whataboutery leads towards a solution.

[Bibidy]

However it is inextricably linked with antisemitism and one thing I feel about people who are activists for this cause from the left. Is why this issue? Why this cause? When genocide, ethnic cleansing and occupation are happening in other places?

Obviously there are things which make this particular hard to stomach, for example how other countries and the in condone it. But honestly I do think for many people there is a link to the antisemitic view of Jewish people as politically powerful.

I think the underlined (hopefully!) section is exactly why people have more thoughts on this. Israel is not widely condemned and is in fact supported by many major countries, regardless of what it does to Palestine, which objectively has far less power and military ability.

[dreamingbohemian]

@DeepThinkingGirl You're right in that international humanitarian law and human rights law applies regardless of history. You can't commit atrocities and justify it with history. So in that sense yes, the history is not relevant.

But if we are talking about conflict resolution, about stopping the atrocities, then the history is entirely relevant, because it is a huge part of the narratives on both sides. It is a big reason why neither side can make certain compromises, why the conflict is so zero-sum.

I'm not saying that those of us who are outsiders should debate which historical narrative is 'right'. But understanding how history is driving behaviour today helps clarify why the conflict is never-ending.

[Bibidy]

Urgh, not underlined!!

Obviously there are things which make this particular hard to stomach, for example how other countries and the in condone it

This section.

[DeepThinkingGirl]

I have always felt very strongly against what Israel is doing to palastine. It was one of the first political issues I was aware of. So I don't disagree with loads of what is said. Israel is occupying a county.

However it is inextricably linked with antisemitism and one thing I feel about people who are activists for this cause from the left. Is why this issue? Why this cause? When genocide, ethnic cleansing and occupation are happening in other places?

Obviously there are things which make this particular hard to stomach, for example how other countries and the in condone it. But honestly I do think for many people there is a link to the antisemitic view of Jewish people as politically powerful.

I think the vested interest in the cause isn’t due to anti Semitism. It is due to the heavy involvement of the western side of the world in the initiation of this conflict in the first place. And drawing out agreements that were never honoured. And so the aftermath stings.

It isn’t residual anti Semitism against Jews. Palestine was a British mandate before it was occupied by Israel (excuse my biased Palestinian language which I don’t appologise for).

Israel is heavily reliant on Europe and USA.. so any serious word from them telling it to stop will do the trick.

That’s very different to affairs of other places that have no history of dependence on the UK or USA.

[ChloeCrocodile]

It is fundamental and basic to expect civilians not be targeted.. children not be targeted .

Absolutely this. Targeting civilians is rightly considered a war crime. You need absolutely no historical context whatsoever to condemn ongoing war crimes.

[piddocktrumperiness]

I'm British Palestinian and for the life of me cannot understand the double standards and hypocrisy when it comes to airing views on the volatile region. I am sick of the conflation of antisemitism with anti Israeli. One is a religion the other a government. I feel gaslight every time I voice my concern over the situation in the region and utter the word Israel.

Enough is Enough.

It invalidates my family's experiences, my views, saying that we don't exist. Israel came to us. We were always there. I do not want a two state solution because I think we might muck it all up. I want to live, alongside all my Israeli cousins, in peace AND be regarded as AN EQUAL- EQUAL to them. That unfortunately, won't happen- in an apartheid state, a fundamentally racist one.

How can someone evict a family that has been there for 70 plus years for the reason that 'God' gave them the land??? Since when was God into real estate??

I agree that we Palestinians are not perfect either and goodness knows how much I detest Hamas and Hizbollah. I don't trust the neighbouring arab countries either and wouldn't trust the Saudi's or anyone in the gulf with anything.

So what needs to happen is the US needs to finally FINALLY hold the Israeli govt accountable and put repercussions in place. They also need to do something about the evangelical Christians while they're at it who perpetuate the blind support for the govt- laughable really considering how that slaps the faces of Christian Palestinians.

The British govt have blood on their hands and will never admit that, admit they botched this whole thing up from the get go- Boy do they love their straight lines on maps. Will they hold the Israeli govt to account- Not in my life time.

[dreamingbohemian]

Apologies @DeepThinkingGirl, I cross-posted with your last post. I do see what you mean now.

[DeepThinkingGirl]

I'm not saying that those of us who are outsiders should debate which historical narrative is 'right'. But understanding how history is driving behaviour today helps clarify why the conflict is never-ending.

And this is why, bringing history into this at a time like this really upsets me..

Because the ultimate goal is to state “turn your energy elsewhere this is never ending and your contribution won’t lead to anything helpful”.

On the contrary, I would like us to focus on the fact, there is human rights violations. And even if the conflict lasts till eternity, it can have boundaries.. and these boundaries can be asserted by those who were direct contributors to the conflict because they’re in a place of power in that conflict (again excuse my biased narration or history).

The conflict can stay till the end of time, but bloodshed and other violations CAN be stopped.

And people need to know that no it’s not complicated at all. Their contribution is very welcome.

Putting pressure on their leaderships to tell Israel to stop right now is welcomed. It’s needed. It’s significant. It saves lives. It helps not create more trauma and reasons for conflict..

[piddocktrumperiness]

We really need to stop with the conflation here. Not all Jews are Zionists, not all zionists are Jews. Not all Jews support Israel.
This is to me, is not an anti-semitic issue. As I said, one is a religion/race the other a govt. I am entitled to criticise the govt without it tarnishing the people.

So please stop it. All it does is suffocate us further. Lets call a spade a spade and stop dancing around this issue. Everyone should be entitled to criticise any govt. I can rant about the Saudis and Qataris till the cows come home, the Chinese govt , the British govt for years and years and The American govt for decades. Israel is no exception to this rule. It should be fair game. Conflation is only giving the Israeli govt special treatment and that cannot be fair. Vote Netanyahu out and vote a decent party in-one that sees the mess that region is in, and aspires for REAL peace, then hopefully I can stop the criticism.

[PuttingOnTheKitsch]

@samG76

Everyone is talking as if there is an obvious solution. But there isn't. Suppose Israel withdrew from the W. bank and Golan heights, and Hamas took over the former and Hezbollah the latter. Does anyone think things would improve. Part of the reason that the Israeli left has been destroyed is that people look at Gaza and think that this would be a model for the West Bank if the Israelis withdrew.

National sovereignty is not conditional on those in charge being nice people.

As despicable as the Syrian regime is, the Golan Heights are Syrian territory and the international community (with the exception of the US) agrees with this.

And saying "Look at Gaza" is no excuse for denying Palestinians elsewhere their rights. Again, human rights are unconditional.

[piddocktrumperiness]

This should have said

We really need to stop with the conflation here. Not all Jews are Zionists, not all zionists are Jews. Not all Jews support the Israeli govt

I wanted to add that not being bale to criticise the govt may add fuel to the fire for those that may be harbouring anti-semitic views. So wouldn't it be in the interest of everyone if we can debate out in the open without the fear of being muted, shadow banned, blocked or deleted?