That car seat costs are not worthy of judgement.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

I just need a rant!

Is anyone else sick of being looked at like you’ve lost your mind when people find out how much you’ve spent on a car seat?

People spend God knows how much on a next-2-me cot, but you spend the same amount on a car seat to be faced with looks of horror and, “Are you mad?” comments.

It’s socially fine to spend £500 on a fancy pram but goodness me, if you spend £150 on a car seat you’re out of your mind.

I’m finding this attitude becoming more and more frequent and I can’t understand why it’s absolutely fine to spend so much money on items as mentioned above, but it seems acceptable to sneer at those who spend £200(ish) on a car seat that can actually save your baby’s life.

You’re almost shamed for it!!

BTW - this post is in no way related to people who can’t afford to spend this amount of money on a car seat, but purely about the double standards of society.

I just don’t get it.

12 years ago I spent hundreds on a fancy imported rear facing seat (at a time is was quite a novel idea). If anybody thought it was excessive, they never dared say anything.

Car safety is more important than a flashy pram

It is also much more than simply spending a lot of money on a car seat.

How many banging on about how much safer an ERF is and the investment is worth it, have also invested in additional driver training?

Sure, we all think we are great drivers, but 94% of accidents are due to driver error. And before you chime in with “other people might hit my car” 50% of accidents are single vehicle crashes. Almost half of multiple vehicle accidents were deemed “avoidable” by other drivers. This leaves a really small number of accidents which were entirely unavoidable.

The single most effective thing you can do to reduce the risk to your child of being killed or injured in a car accident is to improve your driving skills. I thought I was an excellent driver until I had to do a course for work. There number of bad habits I had accrued in the 10 years of driving I had at that point was eye opening. None were particularly dangerous but there were a few which could lead to me being unable to react quickly enough to the road around me. My hazard perception wasn’t brilliant either.

I did the course every 3 years with my employer at the time and my driving has definitely improved. I haven’t been in that job for ten years but booked myself on one course and was about to do another when Covid hit. I will definitely be doing one again when I’m back to regularly driving. Car seats are important, but now DD is out of them, keeping her safe is something I can’t rely on a piece of plastic to do.

Well, our car seat was the most expensive, as after we had bought it, we realised it didn't fit into our car, so had to buy a new car! To be fair, we had known that we would need a bigger one relatively soon (2 door Polo), but had intended to wait a while. Hey-ho.

How many banging on about how much safer an ERF is and the investment is worth it, have also invested in additional driver training?

This is an excellent point

The advanced driving course should include a section with screaming, tired, hungry I need the toilet I’m bored, I feel sick , are we there yet , I’ve dropped my crisps / drink / plastic tat toy children. Obviously in well fitted appropriate moderately priced car seats

The advanced driving course should include a section with screaming, tired, hungry I need the toilet I’m bored, I feel sick , are we there yet , I’ve dropped my crisps / drink / plastic tat toy children. Obviously in well fitted appropriate moderately priced car seats

It should! Although the one I did, had a part that dealt with distractions. There was a hazard perception part where the instructor did what they could to put you off.

@Cleverpolly3

The advanced driving course should include a section with screaming, tired, hungry I need the toilet I’m bored, I feel sick , are we there yet , I’ve dropped my crisps / drink / plastic tat toy children. Obviously in well fitted appropriate moderately priced car seats

My MIL genuinely thinks that’s what “Baby / Child on Board” stickers are for; to alert fellow motorists to the fact that the driver may well be distracted / stressed / sleep deprived so to watch out.

I DO judge people who spend £150+ on a carseat that has a poor safety rating (looking at you cosatto). Or £300+ one that forward faces at 13kg (maxi Cosi Beryl, that's you). Why spend so much on a crap seat?! But no, carseat safety is REALLY important and people should research and buy the safest they can afford (Joie stedi or tilt are the cheapest safe ones).

How many banging on about how much safer an ERF is and the investment is worth it, have also invested in additional driver training?

This is an excellent point
It really isn't.
It doesn't matter how good a driver someone is if another driver drives recklessly and smashes into them.
Does additional driver training give you magic powers to prevent other drivers crashing into your vehicle? Thought not.

Does additional driver training give you magic powers to prevent other drivers crashing into your vehicle? Thought not.

Of course not. Good job no one said it did then, huh?

As the poster upthread says, a sizeable proportion of accidents are single vehicle. And our own safe driving is a crucial means of keeping our children safe on the roads, though obviously not everything is in our control. So yes, a very good point made by the poster in question.

And for what it's worth, it would be interesting to see the breakdown of speeds for various accidents.
For example, how many single car accidents are drivers misjudging their parking vs impact into another vehicle or object at 40mph.

How many accidents at 30/40/60/70mph are single car or multi car?

Even take it at face value, if 50% of accidents involve more than 1 vehicle, why wouldn't someone who can afford it want to spend the money on a car seat that is proven to be safer and place less stress on a child's body?

TheKeatingFive
It would be interesting to see the breakdown of single vehicle accidents by speed, age of driver, location, nature of accident.

Single vehicle accidents can cover cars misjudging parking at low speeds through to younger (usually male) drivers speeding or driving recklessly and losing control. The implication that people are wrong to be talking about the benefits of rear facing and safer car seats because half accidents are single vehicle doesn't stack up.

It doesn't do anything to change the fact that rear facing car seats and those that pass the Sweedish Plus test are safer in a crash.

It doesn't do anything to change the fact that rear facing car seats and those that pass the Sweedish Plus test are safer in a crash

Again, no one’s saying it does.

It just strikes me as somewhat strange to have the strength of feeling about car seats that some have on this thread, and not take other obvious and sensible precautions to protect children on the roads.

As I’ve said upthread, most people in my experience do some research, buy a highly rated model in their price bracket and get on with it. It just doesn’t look that large.

Loom not look

Even take it at face value, if 50% of accidents involve more than 1 vehicle, why wouldn't someone who can afford it want to spend the money on a car seat that is proven to be safer and place less stress on a child's body?

And the majority of those are deemed avoidable by others.

It doesn't do anything to change the fact that rear facing car seats and those that pass the Sweedish Plus test are safer in a crash.

Sure. But the best way to reduce risk is to mitigate it. By far, the biggest risk to your child of being hurt in an accident is you causing an accident. If you think that feeling all superior because you spent out on a more expensive ERF is protecting your child, you might consider if actually, spending that extra 150 quid on a few driving lessons might have protected them more. Better to avoid the accident than have them face the trauma of an accident even if they aren’t badly hurt.

MintyMabel
Most accidents in life are avoidable in some way. There's human error in anything. Isn't that the reason many jobs have pages and pages of risk assessments?

Like I say, it would be interesting to see the breakdown in accidents by location, speed, vehicles involved, age of drivers, context etc.

If someone misjudged their overtake and crashed into my vehicle then it was an avoidable accident, but I'm not convinced that the solution to prevent their reckless driving is me doing more driving lessons.
If someone rear ends me at a roundabout because they expect me to go, that's an avoidable accident, but me doing pass plus doesn't reduce the risk of someone else being impatient.

I question why the discussion about rear facing car seats is met with 'yeah but I bet they won't have done additional driving lessons... most accidents are avoidable'.

And for what it's worth, it would be interesting to see the breakdown of speeds for various accidents.

11% of all injury collisions, 13% of serious injury and 21% involving a death are related to inappropriate speed. Motorcycles contribute most to these figures. Only 3.9% of fatal accidents involved cars.

2/3 of crashes are on roads with a speed limit of 30mph or less.

There were 8 car passenger fatalities in children under 15 in 2019. Only a fraction of these would be children in car seats.

Most collisions involve a loss of control of your vehicle.

If you want to protect your child, be a better driver.

YANBU. I spent £350 ish on a britax dualfix 6 years ago for D1. Still using it now for DS2 and it will easily last him until he outgrows it. It doesn't show its age at all. Bargain imo, considering how important ERF is

There's human error in anything.

The answer to which is always more training.

If someone misjudged their overtake and crashed into my vehicle then it was an avoidable accident, but I'm not convinced that the solution to prevent their reckless driving is me doing more driving lessons.

Better training in taking evasive accidents and knowing how to reduce the impacts would help.

If someone rear ends me at a roundabout because they expect me to go, that's an avoidable accident, but me doing pass plus doesn't reduce the risk of someone else being impatient.

It also isn’t likely to cause a significant injury, even to a child.

And neither of these examples are accountable for the vast majority of injuries.

Someone so aware of risk and apparently able to make better risk judgements they think ERF is the answer, would surely be able to understand that just because you can’t eliminate risk, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t mitigate it where you can.

Buy ERF if you want, it’s your choice. But it would be interesting to see how the stats stack up between well trained FF car seat accidents versus poorly trained ERF ones. I don’t believe that has ever been assessed but the point is you can’t simply say your child is safer because they are ERF if other factors aren’t taken in to account.

@TheKeatingFive
“As I’ve said upthread, most people in my experience do some research, buy a highly rated model in their price bracket and get on with it. It just doesn’t look that large.”

And therein lies the problem when it comes to car seats.
Let’s say your three year old has outgrown their rear facing car seat. You think they are too leggy or too bored with sitting backwards and here not babies or little toddlers anymore after all. They looked confined. So you discount a extended rear facing one because you think they’re unnecessary, apparently more expensive. You’ve got a safe car you’re a good driver etc. Therefore the only remaining option is to put them forward facing in a seat belted HBB seat such as let’s say a Britax KidFix or a belt fitted one such as joie stages or a cybex Pallas.
All of those seats are rated highly and they are technically from a height and in mainly cases depending on centiles height bracket suitable on paper.
The reality is though that let’s say you were in a crash at 70mph regardless of fault / blame then a three year old or even four year child has a pelvic crest that will slide under the seat belt possibly even with a belt guide between their legs. This would cause catastrophic injuries. Even if they stay belted in they are likely to be flung forward at least 50 cm which is the minimum space between the back of the front seats. It will be less with a tall driver or passenger. The shock and impact spreads through their neck and head and back completely differently as well as the fact a young child does not know to brace themselves or understand what is happening. There is a far higher risk of internal abdominal injury too.
If they are rear facing there is a chance they might injure their legs and of course they won’t avoid injury altogether possibly but the injuries are significantly less likely to be life changing or threatening when rear facing

You can make smart remarks about research but there is research and then there is extensive research which separates the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

When you come to consider that many of the forward facing fancy seats are as expensive as some of the erf seats then the argument about cost is also negligible

None of that involves judging a parent
It is just a collection of statements of fact

If they are interpreted as judging than there really an issue inherent with an individual who chooses to react this way because they’ve bought a car seat which is not suitable

Let’s say your three year old has outgrown their rear facing car seat. You think they are too leggy or too bored with sitting backwards and here not babies or little toddlers anymore after all. They looked confined. So you discount a extended rear facing one because you think they’re unnecessary, apparently more expensive

I'm not sure why that's aimed at me, most people I'm referring to have their kids rear facing until at least four.

They just don't seem to invest the same degree of emotional energy into it as some posters on this thread.

@TheKeatingFive

Let’s say your three year old has outgrown their rear facing car seat. You think they are too leggy or too bored with sitting backwards and here not babies or little toddlers anymore after all. They looked confined. So you discount a extended rear facing one because you think they’re unnecessary, apparently more expensive

I'm not sure why that's aimed at me, most people I'm referring to have their kids rear facing until at least four.

They just don't seem to invest the same degree of emotional energy into it as some posters on this thread.

I’m not aiming it at you personally it was a general point in return to your observation

I don’t know if you even have a car!

I’m not infesting emotional energy into it as what other parents do is not my place to to patrol.
Just focusing on facts

@MintyMabel

Car safety is more important than a flashy pram

It is also much more than simply spending a lot of money on a car seat.

How many banging on about how much safer an ERF is and the investment is worth it, have also invested in additional driver training?

Sure, we all think we are great drivers, but 94% of accidents are due to driver error. And before you chime in with “other people might hit my car” 50% of accidents are single vehicle crashes. Almost half of multiple vehicle accidents were deemed “avoidable” by other drivers. This leaves a really small number of accidents which were entirely unavoidable.

The single most effective thing you can do to reduce the risk to your child of being killed or injured in a car accident is to improve your driving skills. I thought I was an excellent driver until I had to do a course for work. There number of bad habits I had accrued in the 10 years of driving I had at that point was eye opening. None were particularly dangerous but there were a few which could lead to me being unable to react quickly enough to the road around me. My hazard perception wasn’t brilliant either.

I did the course every 3 years with my employer at the time and my driving has definitely improved. I haven’t been in that job for ten years but booked myself on one course and was about to do another when Covid hit. I will definitely be doing one again when I’m back to regularly driving. Car seats are important, but now DD is out of them, keeping her safe is something I can’t rely on a piece of plastic to do.

Additional car safety training - me. I took the advanced drivers test not long after my main test and have redone lessons a few times to keep my driving sharp.

The car seat safety law needs to be better as UK regs are shockingly low.
I honestly don't think lots of people realise how shit it is. I mean, Ffs, those £30 Nania seats have passed a test? What test seriously seems those things safe.

Ffs, those £30 Nania seats have passed a test? What test seriously deems those things safe.

I know! So many people buy them for grandparents cars etc. They're awful.

@LolaSmiles

How many banging on about how much safer an ERF is and the investment is worth it, have also invested in additional driver training?

This is an excellent point
It really isn't.
It doesn't matter how good a driver someone is if another driver drives recklessly and smashes into them.
Does additional driver training give you magic powers to prevent other drivers crashing into your vehicle? Thought not.

Yes. Exactly! My advanced driving training helps me spot and avoid potential dangers more but I cannot always avoid some arsehole driving into me.

Having been in a very very serious crash where the entire back side of my car was wrecked (where the safest place to put a car seat is), it made me really stop and think about what would have happened if a child was there in a forward facing seat. Scary scary scary.

Keep them rearfacing for as long as you possibly can. It's 5x safer. That's proven so there's no disputing it. I can't abide all the excuses people make up (eg - they can't see out of the window - yes they can.. just not the windscreen)