Is modern life 'worth it'?

[MrsTroutfire]

Obviously, not an entirely 'serious' question as I doubt many people would want to live in the conditions our predecessors did 200 years ago with limited healthcare etc, and it's not likely that society will change anytime soon anyhow.

However, I drive a lot for my job and have a lot of time to endlessly ruminate over the universe. One thing that I always return to is the fact that as a society we work the majority of hours in a day, the majority of days in a week, the majority of weeks in a year, and the majority of years in our lives.

Then, in our mid/late 60s, with our youth decades behind us, we then finally get the freedom to spend our days as we wish, finances and health allowing. If you're male, the likelihood is that you'll probably have worked for over 40 years without a single month away from your work environment, as most people only get a few weeks leave each year and paternity leave still isn't really very common.

I'm pretty sure this was never planned and just evolved that way, but when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!

Of course life was much tougher in previous centuries, but people were mainly trying to survive. Nowadays it seems like the main purpose of work is churning profit. Even with financial difficulties abound I don't know many people who literally have to worry about survival.

So I sometimes wonder what we actually spend our entire lives working for. No doubt, the machine would stop turning if a huge proportion of the population ceased to make and spend money, but in some ways it seems the system runs us nowadays rather than the reverse, in the sense that money was originally created as an alternative to barter, but is now the principle determinant of quality of life (health issues aside). For example, food may be plentiful, even going to waste, but that's no longer the issue as you'll still starve without the money to buy it (whilst I still appreciate that there has to be some alternative to bartering/swapping of physical goods and a currency is necessary).

It seems like we create new unnecessary technologies, and in turn a market which needs workers to populate it, and this keeps future generations in employment, but at the cost of moving ever further away from subsistence.

Of course people don't want to give up their OLED TV's, iPhones, game consoles, foreign holidays etc, and I don't either tbh. But then a part of me reflects that most people just seem happy to 'play the game' and are so involved in the various aspects of their lives that they don't consider that the biggest sacrifice most of us make is spending the vast majority of our life doing something that we don't really want to and which isn't ultimately necessary for survival in the truest sense.

I'm defo waffling now, but I'd love to be able to contrast our society against a parallel one where our focus has been on prioritising the bare essentials such as food and healthcare etc and people spend a much bigger percentage of their lives actually living them rather than sitting at a desk. Of course they wouldn't have all the gadgets and toys we have but they wouldn't know any different - hell, perhaps in a hundred years time when teleportation has become a thing, people will wonder how we stayed sane only leaving our country 1-2 times a year rather than daily!

We probably could afford more kids but it's the drudge of it that puts me off. I can't imagine how people 100 or so years ago coped with 10+ kids and none of the modern conveniences like fridges and washing machines but with the breakdown in extended family living for many. It must have been miserable.

@MissTrip82 totally agree! Would also like to add that I actually do a fair amount of email shuffling - and I still really enjoy my job. I’m not going to out what it is but it adds fuck all to society as it relates to people buying things they don’t need. But something similar might be - I order the plastic for a phone case factory. Pointless product, a want not a need, to have an avocado 🥑 on the back of your phone, to end up in landfill when some GenZ makes you feel old telling you that liking avocados is not a personality trait 🤣 But I like the people I work with, and take pleasure from a job well done - pointless to society or not. One factor in this is attitude.

@fluffedup if you’re 55 you were potentially on the housing ladder well before it really heated up. You will have benefited from some of the lower mortgage rates ever seen. If you’ve had these thoughts since you were 15, then you chose to have your 5 children in full knowledge rate you and your husband would both have to work until you’re 70. Which may be a trade off you’re happy with 🤷🏻‍♀️

Hard to see how you’ve been “framed” for your own choices, and also hard to see how you’ve ended up needing to work until 70.

@Cocomarine she would have to work until 67 for the state pension. You may not know but plenty of older people lost their pension pot in various scandals. There did not use to be any government protection schemes. And even those that did not go bust often had large hidden charges. The whole industry has had many new regulations forced on it because of the scandals.
Well off people are fine, it is poorer people who often will retire on small private pensions. Which means they can not afford to until they get the state pension.
More people than ever before work over the state pension age because they can not afford to retire. Either still paying their mortgage or subsidising their young adult children.

@castemary yes, I do know about pension scandals, the PPF and legislative changes - I’m actually only a couple of years younger than @fluffedup

I find it unlikely that she wouldn’t have mentioned pension scandals - if that was an impact for her - in a post where she mentioned expensive housing and claimed she’d been framed.

Yes, at 55 the SPA is 67.

So I’m still surprised that she claims that both adults need to work to 70 because they’ve been “framed” - and not because, simply, they chose to have 5 children.

That poster didn't say they'd been framed. They said humans were being farmed, like as worker drones.

You’re as trapped as you make yourself, IMO.

At the age of 21, I had a full time job and a part time job, working 50-60 hours a week and never seemed to have any money. I was dating a much older guy who was a New Age traveller and he was completely baffled by my work schedule. He got me thinking in a completely different way about making money and my whole work/life balance. There were far easier ways to make money than what I was doing.

My first foray into this, upon his suggestion, was doing baccy runs over to Belgium - spending a few hundred pounds on tobacco and then doubling my money by selling it back here. Obviously that wasn’t a great long term plan due to the fact that it wasn’t a particularly legal way of making money, but it got me thinking that basically that was the formula, I needed to find things to buy that I could at least double my money on.

Without outing myself, I set up an online business selling on goods I had bought (legally this time!) and that’s what I’ve done for the last 20 years. I’ve done ok, I could have made a lot more money if I had wanted/needed to, but I chose to have more life than work in my balance. I have everything I need, my children have everything they need, we have travelled the world and we have had some amazing experiences.

Sometimes there are things I have to do work-wise on certain days but largely speaking, I get to control what happens with my time. The nature of my business means I can work my arse off for a month and then coast along doing very little for a few months. I never have to wonder if I can get time off for special events etc, my work is planned around my life, not the other way around.

No I don’t have a massive fancy house (just a normal nice home), or a brand new car or loads of expensive stuff, but what I do have is time and lots of memories of great experiences with people I love. I reckon on my death bed that’s what I’ll be thinking of, rather than material goods. You only get one life, it’s up to you what you do with those hours you are breathing.

I’m not judging anyone else or saying I’ve got it right BTW, but I’ve got it right for me.

'You’re as trapped as you make yourself'

That is very true ☝🏻 it's hard though isn't it? People have a kid and mortgage. You're trapped as you can't just take off and travel or live elsewhere. Suppose mortgage can be rented out but I think having kids is the biggest factor is not being able to 'do as you please'. Not only physically but also financially.

I don't have kids yet and worked hard on my career (and 3 passports) so I have an option of going anywhere and getting a job there and living there. I'm trying for kids atm and wonder if I'll be 'trapped' after, too.

My hope is that we can afford to move countries as we please, but I'm realistic about doing so with a kid (schools etc.)

@AmberIsACertainty

That poster didn't say they'd been framed. They said humans were being farmed, like as worker drones.

Thanks for the correction @AmberIsACertainty ! 🙂

Though I still think framed or farmed, her need to work three years past collecting her state pension is either hyperbole, poor decision making or choosing a large family - and is not the norm.

It is probably due to a large family. Many parents say they need to work to help their children at university. Of course, they do not NEED to, but they are trying to be good parents.

I feel the same when people have 2 kids and complain about the bills, the kids, the unhelpful husband.

Whyyyy did you repeat it all again when you knew what the outcome would be?

To be a mum I get it, have one ☝🏻 kid.

I'm not judging honestly, I just try to understand their view and just can't picture putting myself in that position.

@Cocomarine @AmberIsACertainty @castemary

My post wasn't meant to be a complaint about my individual circumstances. Of course I knew I would have to work more to pay for more children - and it was 4 children, not 5, as one died. I only mentioned 5 because they all resulted in maternity leave, but I kept those maternity leaves short. I was illustrating that I had spent my adult life in paid work.

I should have known that mentioning a large family would result in judgemental replies. I have a decent career and a non-cock-lodger husband so I can afford four children, don't waste your concern on me.

And I didn't take advantage of cheaper house prices years ago, because I lived in an area where there was a lot of street harassment and didn't want to tie myself to the area.

I should have expanded on my comment about being farmed (not framed) and its relevance to a discussion on modern life. The cost of living keeps rising and no government seems keen to take sensible measures to manage it.

For example - water and utility costs have risen massively since they were privatised. Thirty years ago I paid my water bill annually and I didn't even budget for it - it was about 35 quid, ie just over a week's rent, which itself was less in real terms than it is now.

The obvious one - house prices - we need more social housing to take the heat out of the housing market. At the moment most people have a choice of buy or rent privately. We need an alternative - I'm not talking about subsidising people, but providing an alternative that isn't a rip-off.

Care of the elderly in the home - elderly people pay at least £12 an hour for care in the home (usually more) but the carer sees a fraction of that. The money has to also cover shareholders and marketing costs. Cut that out by having the council run it, pay the carers better and pass some of the savings onto the elderly person. Again - not subsiding people, just managing it so they're not ripped off.

Care of the elderly in a home for the elderly - very often a lot of this cost is rent of the room. So you get an older person who may have avoided staying in hotels as a working person, due to cost, now forced to live in what is effectively an expensive hotel. We need council run care homes and charge the residents at cost - so not subsidised for most people, just not a rip off.

School meals - where I live these are provided by Charterhouse - I think that's what they are called - Tory donors who were managing the Marcus Rashford initiative and providing poor quality for money. At my child's primary school they are cost way more than it costs to supply them. I appreciate you have to prepare them, but there will also be a massive economy of scale when sourcing the ingredients.
At secondary school it is worse as they have a cafeteria system where the children have to buy cartons and cans of drink. I don't use cafes much myself because of the cost but the children are a captive audience who have to use it every day. I provide my secondary children with a packed lunch but I worry that they see children whose parents have lots of money spending without any limits.

Again - provide a system where people (apart from the poorest) pay for themselves but are not ripped off.

Vets bills - these have rocketed in recent years because the law was changed so that vet practices did not have to be owned by a vet, and private equity companies got involved. Vets deserve decent reward for their skills but now the prices have to cover shareholders costs. There was a discussion on the news today about providing a NHS for pets. Or we could just not be ripped off.

That's what I meant by 'we are being farmed'.

I'm not against capitalism or share ownership by the way, but there needs to be sensible management.

The Labour approach is to hand out taxpayers cash without considering the situation sensibly. The Tory approach is "fuck 'em".

It needs sorting out.

@fluffedup I know it wasn't. It was a comment on society. One I agree with. I got bored of trying to explain it to others, sorry, tbh I didn't try very hard I was tired.

I agree with you, puppets to the machine...

And now I've read the rest of the post, I vote fluffedup for PM 😆

@AmberIsACertainty

And now I've read the rest of the post, I vote fluffedup for PM 😆

yay!

But all I've just said is screamingly obvious - so why isn't it happening?

Because politicians are selfish? IDK. I think they're too concerned with making themselves shit loads of money to care about properly helping the people they're governing and ensuring all people have quality of life. By which I don't mean 'giving them the opportunity' of quality of life if they jump through enough hoops, I mean making it happen eg in the ways you've posted above. If I try to think about it too much I can feel my brain cells starting to die off from misery.

People are a mystery to me. I don't understand modern society. So I've no idea why politics is the way it is or why people vote as they do. That's a level of things I don't have the brains to deal with. So I focus on the choices of everyday life, on how to exist happily within the fucked up illusory matrix of Modern Life, where most things are pointless and almost none of it is real. It's the best I can do.

If I look out of my window there's a beautiful garden filled with birds and bees and blossom. A short walk away there's allotments, parks, shops, woods, footpaths, lakes. None of it's 'new' or 'better' than before, it doesn't get upgraded every six months. Its real though.

But where are most of the people, most of the time? In brick boxes, staring at screens they're addicted to and can't put down. There's people in the same room who they're not speaking to, whilst they post on social media about how lonely they are. They buy expensive creams to try to reverse the extra lines in their faces caused by blue light emitting from their even more expensive devices, then complain they've no money for essentials. Take pills they shouldn't need to deaden the pain in their backs caused by not moving around, then grumble about the side effects and are too scared to take a covid vaccine. Watch programs about combining different foods to make healthy tasty meals and communal eating with friends, read magazines about fashion and shop endlessly, all whilst dining alone on pot noodles and biscuits and getting fat.

No need to even ask friends what they think about what they're watching on their screens. Who even needs that level of human interaction now we can watch people on our screens who are reacting to what they're watching on their screens? If you want a modern definition of mental illness, it's got to be that.

How long before we're upgraded at birth such that our eyes never see the sky other than through the computer screen overlaid onto our corneas?

Ask yourselves who do you love and when did you last look into their eyes and speak with them? How long did you spend with them? How long did you spend staring at a TV, computer, tablet or phone screen (not work related) this week, whilst stressing that you've got no spare time? Work/life balance can be a problem, but it's compounded by poor choices about what to do with downtime.

If people spent more time interacting and talking, then society might become more cohesive, people might start to care more about each other in a general way, and perhaps those with a talent for big visions that would improve people's lives would be noticed more by others and their ideas would gain momentum, then people might start voting differently. At the moment it's all a bit "I'm alright Jack" from the grassroots to the most powerful, including politicians.

I agree AmberisaCertainty, it's sad to think that we are more disconnected than ever from our natural world. I don't believe our bodies or brains were designed for this level of inactivity.

We end up just overthinking everything, and unfairly scrutinising ourselves and eachother. Much of the time spent online is just distraction. Even time on MN is distraction...opinions, judgements, rants. Look at all the 'spats' on twitter, what a sad waste of time.

I think a certain amount of technology is undoubtedly a good thing, for medicine and a certain amount of convenience and comfort. But the level that technology has taken over and shaped our day to day experience is not something that could have been predicted even 100 years ago. It's so strange that it has become normalised.

Apparently, this is what progress looks like. Even though many people are incredibly unhappy, or self medicating just to get through life. It's nuts.

But someone will come along in a minute and tell us that we're hippies, who just want to take people back to the dark ages or something.

Which is bull...I just think many of us don't believe the way the modern world is designed is benefitting us a whole. And it could be so much better, but only if we acknowledge the problems first.

Amazing @AmberIsACertainty

@AmberIsACertainty ‘posting on social media about how lonely‘, dining alone on pot noodles’, ‘shopping endlessly and buying expensive creams’... you seem to be talking about a very subsection of people...depressed single women?

What you’re talking about is what very old people who have no idea of technology and the media to portray modern society to be. When in fact all around me people of all ages use technology to make their lives better. Video game groups organise real life meet-ups. Singing groups made collages to substitute not being able to sing in real life.

And more importantly for the people who’ve always felt excluded (especially neurodiverse people) the internet has been a good way to meet like minded people.

Now I’m not denying that technology has problems. Seeing everyone else’s plastic lives online can make you feel bad about yourself. And with the rapid pace of change /choice humans can feel disoriented and stuck in a rat race.

But with choice comes greater mental effort. If we want a calmer life the trade off is less choice. How many people are willing to give that up? I don’t deny that corporations have gone overboard with the pollution and consumption. But the ones with the destructive behaviour you described are damaged and not the majority of people. A slower pace of life won’t make them happier. They’d just find something else to be addicted to . Like drinking.

‘posting on social media about how lonely‘, dining alone on pot noodles’, ‘shopping endlessly and buying expensive creams’... you seem to be talking about a very subsection of people...depressed single women?

No most of the people I've met doing one or more of these things or similar aren't depressed single old women, although possibly some of them might be 🤷 I tend not to enquire about my friends and acquaintances potential mental health problems. Ivw met people of all ages though not predominantly old ones.

The people I write about are the teenage friends at bus stops ignoring each other whilst messaging others on their phones. The 20 somethings putting their DC in front of a tv so they can call someone up to moan about how shit life is, when they could have gone done something fun instead. The 40yr old colleague who shocked me with his countdown to retirement every time he had a birthday, he had 25yrs to go! That's far too long to exist just to count down the years. There's various threads on here from people struggling to make friends with anyone at all because people in general just don't want to interact and seem incapable of committing to anything. It's not any one type of person from what I see, it's a general societal thing.

And in general I disagree with "online friendships", it's a pleasant distraction but I feel it's just another illusion. Perhaps some make genuine friendships that way, but I suspect most of these friendships have no substance and wouldn't translate offline. This is exactly what I meant about things not being real. Watching others fictional lives on TV instead of living your own. Pseudo online friendships that fake a sense of connection but leave people feeling somehow unfulfilled, without being able to work out why. The looks-based popularity contest of 'likes', 'follows' and selfies.

The online bullying and trolls that sometimes ruin lives. Ignoring the bullies and trolls behaviour for a moment, all the victims would have to do to solve their own situation is put down the phone, log off, sign out - but they can't. How fucked up is that? No they shouldn't have to, but they theoretically could, that's the point I'm making here. People would rather have some sort of stressful official/legal battle over it than just ignoring, logging off and speaking to their friends in person.

Choices are good upto a point. I read some science about it once. If all this choice in the world makes people happy, then why aren't more people content with their lives, given that they have vast amount of choices what to do with their lives? I think there's too much choice and most people would do better with less choices surrounding everyday things. It's just an opinion

There's a psychologist called Barry Schwartz who talks about the paradox of choice, and how having too many options can make us more dissatisfied.
Look at online dating - people just swiping by to the next one, and the next one, thinking they can always find 'better'.

Also I'm glad you've seen evidence of people using technology to make their lives better, that's what it should be for. Perhaps it all comes down to who we happen to meet as we go through life? I'm not writing from an older persons anti-technology, media portrayal of modern life perspective. I'm writing about what I see and the people I meet. If the people making bad decisions are damaged I'd have to disagree they're the minority, I'd say it's more 50/50 at least. I do get told I'm a good listener, so perhaps I attract people who like to moan and it skews my perspective? Perhaps those same people are all smiles and happiness to others they meet.

And in general I disagree with "online friendships", it's a pleasant distraction but I feel it's just another illusion. Perhaps some make genuine friendships that way, but I suspect most of these friendships have no substance and wouldn't translate offline.

Of course this is true of some online friendships, but I have made some very good real life friends where we first met online over shared interests. I don't really see why that's any more unlikely to result in real friendship than someone you know down the pub or at an exercise group or whatever.