Is modern life 'worth it'?

[MrsTroutfire]

Obviously, not an entirely 'serious' question as I doubt many people would want to live in the conditions our predecessors did 200 years ago with limited healthcare etc, and it's not likely that society will change anytime soon anyhow.

However, I drive a lot for my job and have a lot of time to endlessly ruminate over the universe. One thing that I always return to is the fact that as a society we work the majority of hours in a day, the majority of days in a week, the majority of weeks in a year, and the majority of years in our lives.

Then, in our mid/late 60s, with our youth decades behind us, we then finally get the freedom to spend our days as we wish, finances and health allowing. If you're male, the likelihood is that you'll probably have worked for over 40 years without a single month away from your work environment, as most people only get a few weeks leave each year and paternity leave still isn't really very common.

I'm pretty sure this was never planned and just evolved that way, but when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!

Of course life was much tougher in previous centuries, but people were mainly trying to survive. Nowadays it seems like the main purpose of work is churning profit. Even with financial difficulties abound I don't know many people who literally have to worry about survival.

So I sometimes wonder what we actually spend our entire lives working for. No doubt, the machine would stop turning if a huge proportion of the population ceased to make and spend money, but in some ways it seems the system runs us nowadays rather than the reverse, in the sense that money was originally created as an alternative to barter, but is now the principle determinant of quality of life (health issues aside). For example, food may be plentiful, even going to waste, but that's no longer the issue as you'll still starve without the money to buy it (whilst I still appreciate that there has to be some alternative to bartering/swapping of physical goods and a currency is necessary).

It seems like we create new unnecessary technologies, and in turn a market which needs workers to populate it, and this keeps future generations in employment, but at the cost of moving ever further away from subsistence.

Of course people don't want to give up their OLED TV's, iPhones, game consoles, foreign holidays etc, and I don't either tbh. But then a part of me reflects that most people just seem happy to 'play the game' and are so involved in the various aspects of their lives that they don't consider that the biggest sacrifice most of us make is spending the vast majority of our life doing something that we don't really want to and which isn't ultimately necessary for survival in the truest sense.

I'm defo waffling now, but I'd love to be able to contrast our society against a parallel one where our focus has been on prioritising the bare essentials such as food and healthcare etc and people spend a much bigger percentage of their lives actually living them rather than sitting at a desk. Of course they wouldn't have all the gadgets and toys we have but they wouldn't know any different - hell, perhaps in a hundred years time when teleportation has become a thing, people will wonder how we stayed sane only leaving our country 1-2 times a year rather than daily!

Superficially you’re right. I’d much prefer to be living in a little village, growing my own food, perhaps running a little business being the local basket-maker or something, and surrounded by a community of people I’ve grown up with all doing the same thing.
Until there’s a year of freak bad weather and my crops all fail. Or my parents get too old to manage their smallholding so I have to do that as well as my own. Or the landlord down the road pollutes the river and we can’t stop him. Etc, etc.
The truth is that living like that only gives you a thin veneer of control. Yes, in theory you can take a random afternoon off because you don’t have a boss. But in practice you can’t, if that’s the afternoon the harvest needs bringing in. Yes, what you’re doing all day is more meaningful, because it’s directly about your family’s survival rather than profit. But that means when you fuck up, you fuck up. No safety net. You work until you die, until you die.

when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!
I disagree. I've always thought that it's a waste of a life to spend all that time doing a job that you don't like. I enjoy my work, think it is useful and purposeful (brings benefits to others) and I choose companies that I want to work for.

@malificent7

A friend made a good point....technology is supposed to make our lives easier and free up leisure time...so why arent we working less?

Who said it’s supposed to do that?

It does, anyway - I certainly spend more time doing what I want because of my washing machine and tumble dryer.

Less time shopping as it’s all online.

Less time on bills, same reason.

I spend the same amount of hours at work, but do less repetitive dull tasks.

You might be interested in looking into the FIRE movement. It stands for Financial independence retire early. Some people do it so they only have to work part time, others so they can retire at 40, or so they can take lower paying jobs that give them job satisfaction etc. Some are high earners, work their ass off for X years. Some decide they don't need luxuries and cut back to bare Essentials and work part time now. But I think if you find like minded people and get into those circles you will find plenty of ideas and inspiration. Try Reddits fireUK board (assuming you are in the UK!)

I have 1 hour each evening to myself, usually I try to read but fall asleep or end up something more mindless. I love my kids to bits and they keep me grounded but man work, kids and household... exhausting. Even their school life is so different to mine.

The really scary thing is I hate the idea that my currently pretty happy kids have MY robotic life to look forward to when they grow up.

@thecatsthecats you do it need a finite number of say nurses but as most people don't make that decision until 16/18 and many much later, same for any job that requires a DD event broad education, you need to give everyone the same opportunity to access those jobs. This isn't Brave New World

I don't think your premise is very sound, at least not as any kind of universal notion.
I can tell you that my DH is late 40s and certainly has had more than a few weeks at a time off work, inlcuding multiple parental leaves of several months, as well as long holidays and a sabbatical.
I can tell you that neither he nor I work to generate profit for anyone, and our work is essential to people.
I can also tell you that a lot of people are struggling to put food on the table and pay for basics, and your pontificating about how we all just care about buying ipads and cars is actually quite offensive.

Perhaps you work long hours at a desk in a job you dislike as you're mad for money and material things, but please don't assume we all are the same.

When was the time people didn't have to spend most of their time working? We have the right to a a minimum number days of paid leave, the right to hours of rest between shifts. Sick leave, pensions and so on.

I'm also very thankful that I have potable water at the turn of a tap, washing machine, fridge, freezer and cooker. I don't have to riddle the grate and clear out the ashes every morning, and the house is much cleaner because of that.

Plus I have technology which means I can speak to and see friends who are literally all round the world, and I can still write them letters if I want.

Life was mostly far harder in the past.

We are working way less! Saturday didn't used to be a day off for most people - it used to just be Sundays you would have off. Holidays are a relatively new thing for most people.

Also consider that we don't have to make our food if we don't want to - you can buy most things ready made. You don't have to walk miles to work anymore, there is childcare readily available, etc.

I think most people's wages do go largely to the essentials - being heating, shelter, and transport. Of course our wages often buy extras - but we probably couldn't afford these essentials without our wages.

I mean we have more free time than at any period before us. Cleaning and cooking takes less time than ever, most people get a two day weekend, fewer people work 12-16 hour days.

Humans need to work to live - whether that's spending time in an office for money for food and shelter or by growing and harvesting food to eat and shelter or hunting and foraging.

Love your post. I think you are spot on. Most people don't realise that they are slaves to earning and spending money . Of course many people don't have a choice but for this who are comfortably off, earning more to spend more is really quite pointless isn't it. We believe we need more . I left the UK and live a different life now. I earn a good living but live near the beach and have more free time. I think about these things all the time too. I am glad I made the change.

when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!

My partner is a paramedic and he genuinely loves his job. I think he’d look around until he retires with complete satisfaction.

And I don’t mind my job, I am well paid with lots of benefits and like everyone I work with. I know I’m not going to be here forever though, so I’m happy to live in the moment

@Chickencrossing

I do envy people who find jobs they can enjoy, afford a little bit more than bare minimum bills and have social purpose. What are these jobs?!

I’m a social media manager for a “quirky” brand. Bloody love it

YANBU. This is why I’m making a plan to go mortgage free and semi retire next year. I’m “only” 38, but I want out of the rat race and more time with my family.

As a retired teacher, I don't agree completely with the idea that we would be happier if we didn't need to work. I have been retired for a few years now, but still miss the sense of companionship with my colleagues, the fulfillment of the job itself, and the children.
I flit from one hobby to another, and to be honest I do enjoy them as they are creative - art, learning the keyboard, knitting and sewing, but I still feel a bit useless. I see my granddaughter once a week, but only for a couple of hours, and that's only because her mum wants us to have contact with her. Which of course, is lovely, but I still feel a bit 'in the background.'
The problem is that many people's working lives are boring and repetitive, and don't provide job satisfaction, but I can't see how that can be overcome. Someone has to do the boring jobs, and these days, one income isn't enough for a lifestyle which is seen as decent.
Decent, of course, being enough money for holidays, cars, good food etc. Today these things are seen as a reflection of how 'well' people are doing. You often hear 'oh, so and so has done really well for himself/ herself.' What this means is, 'so and so has made a lot of money.'
It's the way our society works and I don't really see an alternative.

Look up the FIRE movement. Perfectly normal people are retiring in their 40s or earlier. Unfortunately you do need to live a bit abnormally to achieve it (not buying the most expensive house/car you can afford, to name one)

Yanbu

@EdHelpPls

You might be interested in looking into the FIRE movement. It stands for Financial independence retire early. Some people do it so they only have to work part time, others so they can retire at 40, or so they can take lower paying jobs that give them job satisfaction etc. Some are high earners, work their ass off for X years. Some decide they don't need luxuries and cut back to bare Essentials and work part time now. But I think if you find like minded people and get into those circles you will find plenty of ideas and inspiration. Try Reddits fireUK board (assuming you are in the UK!)

I'm part of the FIRE movement. I came across it when I felt like you 10 years ago! DH and I have worked our socks of but we now can afford to both work part time and have lots more free time. I recommend the book "Your money or your Life" by Vicky Robin as a starting point. It does get slated as it tends to focus on high earners and extreme cases but I do feel lots of people could adopt some parts of the strategy to improve their lives.

I’m probably coming at this from a slightly different angle, but just thinking about PPs who’ve highlighted the rise in mental ill health, comparing ourselves to others etc... Go back even just 150 years, nothing from an evolutionary point of view, life for many would’ve been focused on day to day survival. Obviously for many globally this remains the case, but for those of us living in developed countries (with some exceptions of course), day to day survival in terms of where the next meal is coming from, staying warm and dry, drinking water aren’t driving factors in our lives. Which frees up a lot of time for us to spend comparing our lives to others’, keeping up with the Joneses, navel gazing, etc...

From an evolutionary point of view, we’re designed for survival. Now we’re not consumed with day to day survival, we’ve got al this extra time for ruminating which isn’t always a heathy thing.

Which isn’t to say I want to go back to a time where survival was the primary concern, I like food and heating and a warm bed as much as the next person!

[quote SleepingStandingUp]@thecatsthecats you do it need a finite number of say nurses but as most people don't make that decision until 16/18 and many much later, same for any job that requires a DD event broad education, you need to give everyone the same opportunity to access those jobs. This isn't Brave New World[/quote]
I know it's not as simple as this, but the theory I'm idly wondering over is this (numbers invented for simplicity):

Say for 10000 kids, you know you need 100 of them to work in healthcare, to serve the health needs of those 10000 kids.

Then say that you put all 10000 of them through a broad education that allows you to pick out the 100 healthcare workers.

But then you have a lot of rejects who went through the broad education to find your 100 healthcare workers. (Obviously there are other professions, but let's leave those aside for a minute)

OK, so switch it around. You educate the 10000 very well in literacy and functional numeracy - measuring and calculation. You identify 150 odd of the brightest and train those in healthcare. They don't learn about geography etc - just their trade, and allow for some dropouts.

The interesting question to me is that currently it seems that the process of educating and processing all 10000 isn't very effective at creating healthy lives for those 10000. They live longer, but with far greater incidence of lifestyle diseases and poor mental health. And that process creates a situation where you need not 100 healthcare workers, but 150, to deal with the issues created by churning all 10000 through society into those other jobs mentioned...

It's just a strawman theory, but I think that we as humans should challenge and consider whether social systems work for us. (I pick on healthcare here because its so often seen as a sacred cow - we must have more nurses, doctors etc, rather than look at creating a society that doesn't generate so many healthcare needs...)

I mean we have more free time than at any period before us. Cleaning and cooking takes less time than ever, most people get a two day weekend, fewer people work 12-16 hour days

My understanding is this would only be true if we started counting from the start of the industrial revolution.

It's an interesting point OP. In 1930 Keynes predicted that technology would free us from work to the extent that we'd only need to work a 15-hour week. Obviously that's not the case!

One thing I really struggle with is the 'moral good' that is attached to work, at least in western society. Of course some jobs are necessary or fulfilling, or ideally both. But generally people who suggest that that may be more to life than slogging in an office for 40 hours a week in order to enrich shareholders and to Buy More Stuff are viewed with suspicion. And I agree that the impact on mental health is significant.

I would highly recommend reading Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber and Not Working by Josh Cohen.

None of this is meant to suggest that going back to some pastoral idyll (that never existed) is preferable. Life before the 20th century was indeed nasty, brutish and short for most. But that doesn't mean we should just sit back and pretend we've sorted it all out now either!

No, not in my eyes. I’d rather live in a small cabin, grow my own fruit and veg, teach my children about the world and land, DP hunt or fish etc. Modern day life is nowt but stress and focusing on money and careers. There’s no time to enjoy life when you’re too scared you won’t be able to either pay the bills or put food on the table.