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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is modern life 'worth it'?

332 replies

MrsTroutfire · 09/05/2021 20:18

Obviously, not an entirely 'serious' question as I doubt many people would want to live in the conditions our predecessors did 200 years ago with limited healthcare etc, and it's not likely that society will change anytime soon anyhow.

However, I drive a lot for my job and have a lot of time to endlessly ruminate over the universe. One thing that I always return to is the fact that as a society we work the majority of hours in a day, the majority of days in a week, the majority of weeks in a year, and the majority of years in our lives.

Then, in our mid/late 60s, with our youth decades behind us, we then finally get the freedom to spend our days as we wish, finances and health allowing. If you're male, the likelihood is that you'll probably have worked for over 40 years without a single month away from your work environment, as most people only get a few weeks leave each year and paternity leave still isn't really very common.

I'm pretty sure this was never planned and just evolved that way, but when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!

Of course life was much tougher in previous centuries, but people were mainly trying to survive. Nowadays it seems like the main purpose of work is churning profit. Even with financial difficulties abound I don't know many people who literally have to worry about survival.

So I sometimes wonder what we actually spend our entire lives working for. No doubt, the machine would stop turning if a huge proportion of the population ceased to make and spend money, but in some ways it seems the system runs us nowadays rather than the reverse, in the sense that money was originally created as an alternative to barter, but is now the principle determinant of quality of life (health issues aside). For example, food may be plentiful, even going to waste, but that's no longer the issue as you'll still starve without the money to buy it (whilst I still appreciate that there has to be some alternative to bartering/swapping of physical goods and a currency is necessary).

It seems like we create new unnecessary technologies, and in turn a market which needs workers to populate it, and this keeps future generations in employment, but at the cost of moving ever further away from subsistence.

Of course people don't want to give up their OLED TV's, iPhones, game consoles, foreign holidays etc, and I don't either tbh. But then a part of me reflects that most people just seem happy to 'play the game' and are so involved in the various aspects of their lives that they don't consider that the biggest sacrifice most of us make is spending the vast majority of our life doing something that we don't really want to and which isn't ultimately necessary for survival in the truest sense.

I'm defo waffling now, but I'd love to be able to contrast our society against a parallel one where our focus has been on prioritising the bare essentials such as food and healthcare etc and people spend a much bigger percentage of their lives actually living them rather than sitting at a desk. Of course they wouldn't have all the gadgets and toys we have but they wouldn't know any different - hell, perhaps in a hundred years time when teleportation has become a thing, people will wonder how we stayed sane only leaving our country 1-2 times a year rather than daily!

OP posts:
Oblomov21 · 13/05/2021 18:00

I have often considered this. It does seem skewered.

nutshellydon · 13/05/2021 18:32

You should watch some Alan Watts. Start with "what if money were no object". They really get me thinking

nutshellydon · 13/05/2021 18:36
maymaymayI · 13/05/2021 18:42

It's @MrsTroutfireVII's thread. She is the OP

You may have noticed all the other people posting though. And others responding to them. It's not all about the OP, threads take many turns and the OP does not control what they come to be about. Do keep up Hmm

Gotta love Mumsnet

You do? Shame you don't appear to know how it works then.

TinyGlassOwl · 13/05/2021 20:44

You were telling the OP to read her own thread Grin It's not me that needs to keep up, love.

MrsTroutfireVII · 14/05/2021 01:06

I suppose I don't even really have a specific 'point' in this thread. It's more but reflecting on how society came to be how it is. The shift from many people struggling to survive in fairly recent history (relative to modern human existence spanning at least 10k years) to our current situation where survival isn't a concern for most but we nonetheless spend most of our life working.

Some countries have moved to four day weeks or six hour days and productivity seems to have not suffered according to studies. I'm interested to know how far we could push this, and what would we first have to sacrifice in order to say half our work week.

dayslikethese1 · 14/05/2021 21:43

I read some crazy work hours on here, like 70/80 hour weeks. It does seem nuts that lots of ppl cant find fulltime or enough work and other people work 80 hours a week. There must be a better way of organising it.

Mavisxyz · 15/05/2021 20:54

I don’t think you are BU at all but then that’s why I am a SAHM. We have enough money from one income and the whole family is happier this way and less stressed. Often on MN you see people saying that they would never give up work to stay at home but I guess often when I read these comments I realise how profoundly I disagree as I believe wholeheartedly in the working to live rather than living to work thing.

One set of family friends we have have an even less stressful set up still where the wife is a SAHM and the man earns a decent amount however he is well qualified and could probably earn a lot more but he is happy where he is and doesn’t chase promotions and has a pretty easy life really - he is able to do the school run a fair amount with his wife and they’ll take their time enjoying the morning without rushing home to log on at 9am. He is probably quite “lucky” in that not lots of jobs would pay enough to support a family of 4 with so little work but I think the crux of it is really that he has a professional job requiring post graduate qualifications and basically just stopped trying to impress or go for the next promotion at the point at which he felt like his salary was enough.

I can relate a lot to this post. I am one of the (very few) women locally who have chosen to remain a sahm. 3 dc of varying ages, no extended family to support and husband who is a higher earner (and has, at times needed to travel but no longer does so and has not taken promotion).

However, I want to do something for my own sense of self esteem but the thought of returning to an office fills me with dread - the last job I had, I enjoyed but could not get flexible working/family friendly working as the working pattern changed and was considered a business need. Also, with 3 dc, it would not have or barely covered the childcare fees/wrap around care etc. (I understand the principle of sharing the childcare fees with partner etc.) I think it can be really difficult for women who find themselves at the lower end of the working scale and may also, like me who don't feel passionate about their work etc. Part of the reason I have remained in relatively dead end jobs is because of the state of my mental health not my ability as such (great academic results). To some extent I feel duped by higher education as it did not pay off as such in my case but there again, it is perhaps more to do with my mental health...I believed/was encouraged to believe that it was going to lead to some sort of promised land in terms of work but it didn't. I am going to try running a very low key on-line business shortly. I expect the returns to be low but hoping it is going to go some way to improving my self-esteem. I am edging toward late forties...mortgage paid fortunately to enable me to do something like this. Looking back at some of the jobs I have had, I feel un-appreciated and almost treated like a robot, bored or stressed in 4 out of 5 of them not to mention some pretty unpleasant work colleagues/nasty office politics and in a couple of the work settings female bosses who were bullies. I fear for my children going forward and hope they find work they are happy doing.

I do worry about the cost of living. Even the cost of buying decent quality food seems to be increasing.

I do envy people who find jobs they can enjoy, afford a little bit more than bare minimum bills and have social purpose. What are these jobs?!

Also interested in hearing the answers to the above.

Mavisxyz · 15/05/2021 20:55

Sorry for the epic post...I have been giving this a lot of thought recently.

Whereverilaymycat · 15/05/2021 22:01

@Mavisxyz I totally understand where you’re coming from.

AmberIsACertainty · 16/05/2021 10:27

I do envy people who find jobs they can enjoy, afford a little bit more than bare minimum bills and have social purpose. What are these jobs?!

I don't think it's a specific job but a mindset. I've been totally broke and more comfortably off. A lot of what others consider essential, I don't. Meaning covering the bare essentials plus a bit extra is easier.

Examples of things I consider luxury are holidays, new cars, cosmetic car repairs, new clothes every season or event, designer clothes, expensive presents, eating out, coffee shops, getting drunk, gym membership, purchasing books, ready made sandwiches, TV and license, latest phone. I'm fine without any of this.

I'd eat out for eg a friend's birthday, but not split the bill (which goes right up if people are drinking) and only have a main meal and one drink. Your friends want your company, not your cash. Tea in a cafe is a treat not a daily occurance. Spare cash is for experiences with friends and family, eg transport to and entry for a venue, not for buying pointless unnecessary stuff. With gifts it's the thought that counts. I'd bring my own sandwiches to work so I didn't have to buy expensive convenience food at break. If I need a new car it's second hand. Holidays are when I can afford it and what I can afford, not an expense that has to be budgeted for every year. More like, if I needed a break I'd take upto half the 'rainy day' fund for a holiday. I believe in investing time and energy in yourself and your home, making your daily life worth living instead of constantly wanting to escape from it by going on holiday. Basic smart phone does the job just as well. Cycling, running and the library are free. New clothes when old ones wear out. None of this feels like a hardship because of still prioritizing relationships with friends and family.

Even the lowliest jobs make you a part of society, you're helping someone out in the community with what you're doing. You don't have to be a politician or a doctor to change lives. A cleaner helps prevent the spread of disease, a supermarket worker makes food available to purchase, a children's entertainer makes people smile. Whatever your job, if you realise it's importance you'll feel happier to do it. And if it makes you unhappy, change to another.

There's a certain amount of freedom to being a low earner. When you're looking for a job you needn't discount anything below a certain wage, if you know you're fine on the minimum wage. Companies have one boss and tons of minions, so if you're a boss it's harder to find work. Lower paid jobs tend to be the ones where you can easily mentally switch off when you go home.

Alternatively, if you're someone who thrives in the pressure of a full-on career job then accept this about yourself, factor into your life whatever relaxation time you need to cope with the job so the stress doesn't get on top of you. Use the extra income for things that improve your life and make you happy in the long term, if you fritter it away and have nothing to show for it that's when resentment creeps in. Make the job worth it, to you. If you feel you're not doing anything community minded and it's making you feel bad (your wages spent are still contributing to the economy and your leisure persuits are keeping people in work, so you are part of the community) then give up a little time to volunteer or set up a regular donation to charity.

If you're not working youre not useless. Perhaps you're bringing up children, caring for elderly parents, perhaps you did work until you became ill yourself, perhaps you're the friend who's always available for emergency childcare or a shoulder to cry on etc.

No decent person is a waste of space, not even that traffic warden. Nobody's life is a waste of time, not even that severely disabled person who needs a carer. Even shitty people can have some good in them eg my abusive ex who had almost no redeeming features, was helpful towards any elderly neighbours. We are all cogs in the machine of society, as necessary as each other even though we're vastly different. Some people need to be doing something, some need to feel needed, some need space to think. Some like to help and some need to be helped.

It's being accepting of who you are, grateful for what you've got and making the best of things.

BookWorm45 · 16/05/2021 15:50

That was a really great post @AmberIsACertainty

Manzanilla55 · 16/05/2021 16:07

I think Amber the majority of people sadly do not realise your views are bang on.

AmberIsACertainty · 16/05/2021 17:31

Thanks Manzanilla55 and Bookworm 45

Whereverilaymycat · 16/05/2021 17:53

Wow @AmberIsACertainty that’s real good for thought thank you.

bp300 · 16/05/2021 19:00

With a debt based monetary system it isn't possible for a majority of people to live a frugal lifestyle and If we keep the money supply constant but but reduce the number of goods and services then the costs of the basics will rapidly increase.

TalbotAMan · 16/05/2021 19:16

Then, in our mid/late 60s, with our youth decades behind us, we then finally get the freedom to spend our days as we wish, finances and health allowing. If you're male, the likelihood is that you'll probably have worked for over 40 years without a single month away from your work environment, as most people only get a few weeks leave each year and paternity leave still isn't really very common.

I'm male and just about in my mid-60s. Emphatically that. I did return to education and got some time off then, and have worked in jobs with generous holidays, but generally haven't been able to take them all. I did have about 8 months 'off' mid-career, but that was because I was made redundant and it took me some time to get another job. Paternity leave was 2x2 weeks, and even then they kept some work back for me to make up once I was back.

But personally, I extend it. I started school, like most people, at the age of 4, and while I was in education I was working away as required - I just wasn't paid for it. Likewise when I left my first job to go back into education to requalify in a different field, I was working on that without payment.

At the moment I am still working effectively full-time but in two part-time jobs rather than one full-time one. I'm shortly going to drop the one I like less and which pays less, and take a pension from that one, and be truly part-time in the other one.

Health and other circumstances permitting, at the moment I can't see myself fully retiring before 70.

Manzanilla55 · 16/05/2021 19:31

Amber did you ever consider writing a blog as the public need to hear and benefit from your wisdom! It would make a very interesting read and you could take each point and expand on one point at a time weekly or something. Do let us know if you take this idea up.

Ticklemycarpets · 16/05/2021 22:37

@AmberIsACertainty
I love your post. Please start a blog or a Facebook group or podcast. It really gave me food for thought and I'd love to hear more of your wisdom

AmberIsACertainty · 16/05/2021 23:05

Oh, thank you, you're all so sweet Smile . Unfortunately I won't be doing a blog or anything. I'm not that into technology and I spend far too much time on here as it is. Feel free to PM me if you want to chat though, my inbox is always open and you're welcome to any late night bullshit ramblings pearls of wisdom I may have Grin.

Alonim · 16/05/2021 23:12

not even that severely disabled person who needs a carer

I also liked what you wrote Amber - except for the bit above.

I know you didn't mean it to sound disparaging. But it did.

AmberIsACertainty · 16/05/2021 23:50

@Alonim

not even that severely disabled person who needs a carer

I also liked what you wrote Amber - except for the bit above.

I know you didn't mean it to sound disparaging. But it did.

Yes, I wrote it like that because that's how I've heard some people speak of disabled people. Sad

I'm not much for discussion or debate in person and I don't know if that makes people assume I think the same way as them or perhaps they just don't think at all before making their awful comments , but I've often been shocked with some of the things people have said about their own morals, minorities in society, and various other things too numerous to mention. I'll think someone is "ok", "ordinary", "normal", "nice" and then they'll come out with something awful that makes me not like them at all.
Obviously I don't know who I'm speaking to on this or any other thread, it's clear you don't think that way about disabled people and I'm sorry if my words offended you, that wasn't intentional. I was attempting to answer somebody's question, partly by challenging the general mindsets I've come across in society personally.

MissTrip82 · 17/05/2021 00:59

Are you aware many people don’t sit at a desk?

Some of us have meaningful work.

That’s what makes my life so so so much better than my ancestors. I’m not just working to survive, I gain a real sense of meaning and connection from my work.

I find it odd how people often imagine their own work experience is everyone else’s. We’re not all shuffling emails from one folder to the other.

Veronika13 · 17/05/2021 09:25

@fluffedup

I agree.

It only surprises me that you are presenting this as something people may not have considered. I'm 55 and have had this on my mind for the past 40 years.

I will have to work till I'm 70 at least. That will be 49 years of full time work - not counting university. I had an average of three months' maternity leave for each of five children. DH will probably have to work till 70 too, and he's been working full time since 17.

We have a very average life, but as time goes on the cost of living rises. The biggest factor is the cost of housing, and there seems to be no political will to take the heat out of the housing market, eg by providing plenty of stable low cost rental housing so that there is a good alternative to buying.

As more services are privatised, their cost goes up, eg gas, water, electricity, school meals.

We are being farmed.

You wouldn't need to work this much if you had one kid. Fair enough you wanted five and it's your choice. SmileI want to work part time and have 10+ holidays a year and fly business class, and that's my choice.

I'm not having more than 1 child for that reason. I want more $ to have more choices in life.

I'm in the minority but I don't get why people have several kids then don't like that they work so much... well it's because you've to support your brood.

Most people can't have it both ways (several children and enough $$ to do what you want in terms of the amount of hours you work).

Veronika13 · 17/05/2021 09:26

We can afford 5 children but then we wouldn't have as many holidays and both would have to work full time.
No way. So we're sticking with just one.