Is modern life 'worth it'?

[MrsTroutfire]

Obviously, not an entirely 'serious' question as I doubt many people would want to live in the conditions our predecessors did 200 years ago with limited healthcare etc, and it's not likely that society will change anytime soon anyhow.

However, I drive a lot for my job and have a lot of time to endlessly ruminate over the universe. One thing that I always return to is the fact that as a society we work the majority of hours in a day, the majority of days in a week, the majority of weeks in a year, and the majority of years in our lives.

Then, in our mid/late 60s, with our youth decades behind us, we then finally get the freedom to spend our days as we wish, finances and health allowing. If you're male, the likelihood is that you'll probably have worked for over 40 years without a single month away from your work environment, as most people only get a few weeks leave each year and paternity leave still isn't really very common.

I'm pretty sure this was never planned and just evolved that way, but when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!

Of course life was much tougher in previous centuries, but people were mainly trying to survive. Nowadays it seems like the main purpose of work is churning profit. Even with financial difficulties abound I don't know many people who literally have to worry about survival.

So I sometimes wonder what we actually spend our entire lives working for. No doubt, the machine would stop turning if a huge proportion of the population ceased to make and spend money, but in some ways it seems the system runs us nowadays rather than the reverse, in the sense that money was originally created as an alternative to barter, but is now the principle determinant of quality of life (health issues aside). For example, food may be plentiful, even going to waste, but that's no longer the issue as you'll still starve without the money to buy it (whilst I still appreciate that there has to be some alternative to bartering/swapping of physical goods and a currency is necessary).

It seems like we create new unnecessary technologies, and in turn a market which needs workers to populate it, and this keeps future generations in employment, but at the cost of moving ever further away from subsistence.

Of course people don't want to give up their OLED TV's, iPhones, game consoles, foreign holidays etc, and I don't either tbh. But then a part of me reflects that most people just seem happy to 'play the game' and are so involved in the various aspects of their lives that they don't consider that the biggest sacrifice most of us make is spending the vast majority of our life doing something that we don't really want to and which isn't ultimately necessary for survival in the truest sense.

I'm defo waffling now, but I'd love to be able to contrast our society against a parallel one where our focus has been on prioritising the bare essentials such as food and healthcare etc and people spend a much bigger percentage of their lives actually living them rather than sitting at a desk. Of course they wouldn't have all the gadgets and toys we have but they wouldn't know any different - hell, perhaps in a hundred years time when teleportation has become a thing, people will wonder how we stayed sane only leaving our country 1-2 times a year rather than daily!

This is really interesting to me. I’m currently a sahm. I was made redundant with a good settlement and so stayed at home with my then tiny baby. The timing was great as I was completely worn down by a very stressful job with long hours. My mental health was awful.

I’m now looking to start earning again and I’ve really been thinking about what we actually need the money for, what I can do and what compromises we make. I want to earn as it would be good to take some of the load away from my husband and as the kids get older, have something for myself. I have always worked so it’s been novel having this time away. But I’m trying my hardest to think of ways to hang onto as many benefits of our current set up as I can. So thinking carefully about how and where we spend is important. Do I go to work to just have a better car? That seems crazy. But obviously if me working means my husband can work less, then that is really worth it.

My previous life in advertising was all about getting people to buy what they think they need. Selling a feeling. Even knowing all the tricks that go into it, I would still buy anything and everything!

I think there is some confusion on the thread because the term 'modern life' isn't defined, so we are all using our own reference point for what it means.
I have taken it to mean the consumer culture that we live in these days and whether as a society we are striving for more 'stuff' that costs money, which then leads people to work more hours in jobs they may be paid more for.

@toocoldforsno also people talking about ‘consumer culture’
Loads of stuff around about people becoming high earners but not everyone is influenced to become a high earner aren’t they?
But loads of stuff around encouraging consumerism and suddenly ‘it’s the advertisers’ fault we can’t control our shopping habits’
LMAO
People just like blaming everything else but themselves

Modern life doesn't mean consumer culture. What I see is a lot of incredibly privileged people whining about how they aren't happy with all the things they have.

[quote TheLastLotus]@toocoldforsno also people talking about ‘consumer culture’
Loads of stuff around about people becoming high earners but not everyone is influenced to become a high earner aren’t they?
But loads of stuff around encouraging consumerism and suddenly ‘it’s the advertisers’ fault we can’t control our shopping habits’
LMAO
People just like blaming everything else but themselves[/quote]
Wow companies must be really dumb spending all that money on advertising if it doesn’t influence anything!

I dunno OP. I mean the idea of a prelapsarian state of bucolic bliss sounds lovely but we need people to do stuff or to do those things ourselves.

That is, we need shelter and food and to raise our young, as a minimum. Nice to haves are health and protection from adversity.

If you were to provide all of these aspects for yourself you'd spend the majority of your time engaged in such, not sat around looking at meadows. You wouldn't do all or perhaps even any very well.

So instead we divide the tasks up and pool our resources. So, some people build shelter, others maintain it, others provide amenities for it. Others produce food, others transport it. Others provide medical care etc. And then there are supplementary functions to that - training, overseeing, provision of transport to enable activity reach etc.

We encourage participation through reward ie money which enables access to all of this.

It's not a perfect set up, just one way of organising activities that support human life, but if we didn't have it we'd have to support ourselves which has its drawbacks.

I've had a somewhat unconventional work history over the last few years. Back in 2016, my research contract in a pharma company ended, and I started a business with a friend of mine. Later on I went self-employed. Since then, I've had a few years in work, then out of work. I've got used to working for myself, or not working at all. Now I've moved to a much less expensive part of the country, and own my house outright, which I'm doing up. At the moment, I'm living off the proceeds of the house sale, but the renovations are using up a lot of money...

nothing wrong in wanting more and better, and doing whatever you need to achieve it.

Just because someone is struggling or suffering elsewhere in the world doesn't mean we should be content with a mediocre life.

I agree with pps that choosing to spend less money is not opting out of modern life btw. For that you'd have to be one of those survivalists. They don't have a terrifically long life expectancy so that's one thing to bear in mind.

@MrsTroutfireVII
Thanks so much for this thread.. I've never know what this is called but I think I have found it now.

I think the ideology behind this is called post-consumerism. Have a look and see if it resonates with you.

I think there will be a big movement towards this in the coming years for environmental and well-being reasons.
Plus those who were able to pause and reflect at some point in lockdown thinking of living a slower pace of life.

thenextsystem.org/learn/stories/new-hedonism-post-consumerism-vision

You should study economics, OP. I bet you would enjoy it. I did the A level at work and we discussed a lot of this sort of stuff.

Posters who consider themselves to be opting out of a materialistic society by owning property or commanding a high hourly wage should certainly study economics.

@OooPourUsACupLove one point sailing right over head. The point was that we have control over how much we’re influenced. People claim outside influence for negative behaviour and vice versa.

Also advertising appeals to the target market. If you never were into ‘materialistic things’ you’re not going to change because of an ad.

You don't have to live like that though, me and dh opted out and don't have the life you state.
You choose how you want to live, nothing is forced on you.

[quote TheLastLotus]@OooPourUsACupLove one point sailing right over head. The point was that we have control over how much we’re influenced. People claim outside influence for negative behaviour and vice versa.

Also advertising appeals to the target market. If you never were into ‘materialistic things’ you’re not going to change because of an ad.[/quote]
The occasions a person looks at an ad and consciously thinks "ooh, I'll buy that then" are I agree pretty few. It's the continuous drip that influences people, even the ones who think they are too aware to be influenced.

[quote TheLastLotus]@OooPourUsACupLove one point sailing right over head. The point was that we have control over how much we’re influenced. People claim outside influence for negative behaviour and vice versa.

Also advertising appeals to the target market. If you never were into ‘materialistic things’ you’re not going to change because of an ad.[/quote]
One point indeed soared over someone's head!

The occasions a person looks at an ad and consciously thinks "ooh, I'll buy that then" are I agree pretty few. It's the continuous drip that influences people, even the ones who think they are too aware to be influenced.

I bet the typical possessions of a "non materialistic" person in 2021 are quite different to the possessions of their equivalent in 1991, who is different from 1961, and you'd see clear commercial and brand/lifestyle influences in the change.

@toocoldforsno

The confusion on this thread is epic...all this talk of modern life is rubbish, we work too hard, we want more leisure and fun....That is what modern life IS! Never before have so many people had so much leisure time and so little work. If you want to work less and have more free time, you are looking simply for the ultimate in modern life. And you should really stop complaining when you have so much already, universal healthcare, endless education, vast range of food and leisure and entertainment. You have more than any humans have ever had, and comparing yourself to ancient hunter gatherers is frankly pathetic and rather offensive.

No offence, but you state that 'the confusion is epic' on this thread but then seem to have confused the meaning of it yourself when you say 'comparing yourself to ancient hunter gatherers is frankly pathetic and rather offensive', which is absolutely not what this thread is about.

Several people have pointed out that it's not about comparing to previous societies so much as alternative societies and I've also added several updates clarifying this (alrhough some of the points about subsistence commutes of old are certainly interesting).

The question being asked is whether we need to sacrifice the majority of our lives in order to achieve functional healthcare and nourishment - the essentials. I'm not convinced we do, so the question being asked is why do most of us spend all of our healthy years sitting at a desk? Is it to buy more material things or is it just habit? Or do we genuinely need to after all?

I'm not against luxuries and technology. In fact, I love both. But would I prefer to spend the vast majority of my life in a chair to have a new phone/car/tv every few years rather than have twice as much free time and replace the gadgets less often....that's the question.

Forget the talk about hunter gatherers. A better hypothetical question would be whether you'd rather live in our current society or in a society with the technology of the 90s but where you only work half the week?

^I think there is some confusion on the thread because the term 'modern life' isn't defined, so we are all using our own reference point for what it means.
I have taken it to mean the consumer culture that we live in these days and whether as a society we are striving for more 'stuff' that costs money, which then leads people to work more hours in jobs they may be paid more for.^

Yes, this pretty much hits the nail on the head!

You should study economics, OP. I bet you would enjoy it. I did the A level at work and we discussed a lot of this sort of stuff.

I probably would. As a teen I just thought it was all boring stuff about inflation etc but there's so much more to it.

Robert Harris's latest book is set in 1746, the priest is on horseback crossing the moor at night, making his way to a distant village to perform a funeral. But it's 1746 post Armageddon, post some catastrophe that wiped out much of the population, not the first 1746. People dig for 'treasure' - brightly coloured plastic bricks, plastic screens, glass ......
But the interesting bit is that Life has returned to something similar to a medieval time where the Church rules.
I might not have the facts quite right above but that is the gist. Makes you think.

Yes, I heard the Robert Harris book when it was adapted on R4, and my main thoughts were, religion, and women as servants, is that really the best thing we could do?

I do agree. I work 18 hours a week in admin. I made sure I lived in a beautiful part of the world that I knew I wanted to raise a family in from the age of 16. I earn very little but it’s enough to support myself and DS, save a bit and have a bit of fun.

For the most part, I LOVE my life. It’s the life I dreamed of (mostly) as a child.

My mother and brother can’t understand how I’m not constantly striving for more money.

@AlohaMolly

I do agree. I work 18 hours a week in admin. I made sure I lived in a beautiful part of the world that I knew I wanted to raise a family in from the age of 16. I earn very little but it’s enough to support myself and DS, save a bit and have a bit of fun.

For the most part, I LOVE my life. It’s the life I dreamed of (mostly) as a child.

My mother and brother can’t understand how I’m not constantly striving for more money.

Do you not also receive benefits if you work 18 hours in an admin role? In which case, is this not possible for you because other people are earning more and paying tax?

That may not be true of your individual situation - but it certainly would be of others. So whilst it’s interesting what’s possible on an individual level, when we look at options for a wider society, we do need to think about that.

No offence, but you state that 'the confusion is epic' on this thread but then seem to have confused the meaning of it yourself when you say 'comparing yourself to ancient hunter gatherers is frankly pathetic and rather offensive', which is absolutely not what this thread is about

I dont think you read the thread, there were people literally talking about being happier as hunter gatherers.

This thread is about people whining about modern life while benefiting massively from it.

@maymaymayI

No offence, but you state that 'the confusion is epic' on this thread but then seem to have confused the meaning of it yourself when you say 'comparing yourself to ancient hunter gatherers is frankly pathetic and rather offensive', which is absolutely not what this thread is about

I dont think you read the thread, there were people literally talking about being happier as hunter gatherers.

This thread is about people whining about modern life while benefiting massively from it.

It's @MrsTroutfireVII's thread. She is the OP.

And yet whilst moaning that people don't read the thread... you have managed to completely ignore all of the interesting and well-stated points of discussion and reduced them to an accusation of 'whining'.

Gotta love Mumsnet

As a gardener I know that living off the land is quite an achievement - how to store things til the next summer when new crops grow/ how to grow enough in the first place when you can't be sure of weather etc. So the idea of going back to a more simple life isn't straightforward. I am filled with admiration for the 'peasants' who lived in previous centuries. It required a lot of experience and skill to feed a family year on year.
I enjoyed The Way Home by Mark Boyle who lived without techonology for a year. No car no money no electricity etc