Is modern life 'worth it'?

[MrsTroutfire]

Obviously, not an entirely 'serious' question as I doubt many people would want to live in the conditions our predecessors did 200 years ago with limited healthcare etc, and it's not likely that society will change anytime soon anyhow.

However, I drive a lot for my job and have a lot of time to endlessly ruminate over the universe. One thing that I always return to is the fact that as a society we work the majority of hours in a day, the majority of days in a week, the majority of weeks in a year, and the majority of years in our lives.

Then, in our mid/late 60s, with our youth decades behind us, we then finally get the freedom to spend our days as we wish, finances and health allowing. If you're male, the likelihood is that you'll probably have worked for over 40 years without a single month away from your work environment, as most people only get a few weeks leave each year and paternity leave still isn't really very common.

I'm pretty sure this was never planned and just evolved that way, but when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!

Of course life was much tougher in previous centuries, but people were mainly trying to survive. Nowadays it seems like the main purpose of work is churning profit. Even with financial difficulties abound I don't know many people who literally have to worry about survival.

So I sometimes wonder what we actually spend our entire lives working for. No doubt, the machine would stop turning if a huge proportion of the population ceased to make and spend money, but in some ways it seems the system runs us nowadays rather than the reverse, in the sense that money was originally created as an alternative to barter, but is now the principle determinant of quality of life (health issues aside). For example, food may be plentiful, even going to waste, but that's no longer the issue as you'll still starve without the money to buy it (whilst I still appreciate that there has to be some alternative to bartering/swapping of physical goods and a currency is necessary).

It seems like we create new unnecessary technologies, and in turn a market which needs workers to populate it, and this keeps future generations in employment, but at the cost of moving ever further away from subsistence.

Of course people don't want to give up their OLED TV's, iPhones, game consoles, foreign holidays etc, and I don't either tbh. But then a part of me reflects that most people just seem happy to 'play the game' and are so involved in the various aspects of their lives that they don't consider that the biggest sacrifice most of us make is spending the vast majority of our life doing something that we don't really want to and which isn't ultimately necessary for survival in the truest sense.

I'm defo waffling now, but I'd love to be able to contrast our society against a parallel one where our focus has been on prioritising the bare essentials such as food and healthcare etc and people spend a much bigger percentage of their lives actually living them rather than sitting at a desk. Of course they wouldn't have all the gadgets and toys we have but they wouldn't know any different - hell, perhaps in a hundred years time when teleportation has become a thing, people will wonder how we stayed sane only leaving our country 1-2 times a year rather than daily!

I'm with the OP on this. I'm trying to find a name for for it so I can explore it further. A few posts back, some people were talking about it being similar to the FIRE movement, I've had a look but it's not what I'm looking for (too work hard, save hard for me).

I like my job but sitting at a desk for me is not 'living' so I want to work part time and enjoy life as I live it. For me the living is all the stuff that happens outside of work, time spent with the kids, friends, in nature etc.

So my thoughts are...the more I purchase, the more I need to work to be able to afford all these things. If I live a more frugal life, I can work less. Plus it is more environmentally friendly as less is produced.

Is there a name for that (besides just being a bit of a hippy )?

@thepeoplevswork

In a society which prioritised "bare essentials such as food and healthcare" people wouldn't have time for "living". Because the standard of living would be so there wouldn't be time for anything other than eking out an existence "Sitting at a desk" would be something people dreamed about. The society you are describing sounds a bit like some of the rhetoric used about Pol Pot's Cambodia.

I do think some people need a bit of an economic reality check.

But this doesn't make sense to me.

The majority of Western people manage to obtain the bare medical and food essentials whilst also holidaying abroad, owning cars, games consoles, smartphones etc.

How would removing all the unnecessary stuff suddenly mean that we'd have to spend all of our time procuring food etc which we currently manage in addition to the other stuff.

If all the people who worked in the video games, travel, betting, entertainment, etc, industries suddenly focused on the essentials, you think we'd spend more time on them?

@TinyGlassOwl you mentioned material gain, if picking on my example of it was the best you can do...sigh...

@MrsTroutfireVII anecdotally - I know a lot of people who do the 3 day week and a simple life. That is why I’m commenting as I’m in a position to know many people who do.
The people I do know who work like crazy however do it to afford things like their own flat and the ability to pay bills without pinching every penny. Certainly not for foreign holidays

@Bluedeblue

I think an awful lot of self employed people, can reach the right balance between work and home life, because you're working for yourself and can choose your hours and time off.

Also, I think a lot of white collar workers would be shocked at what some "non professional" people earn. I was in a professional job as a Manager for many years, and I took voluntary redundancy and started my own business doing home dog boarding. People assume I earn very little, or do it for "pocket money", whereas in reality, I earn more than I ever did as a Manager in a big company (with all the stress and targets that entailed).

Have a think about what your window cleaner or beautician is raking in. You don't need to tie yourself to an Office.

Agreed.

My father was widowed at age 45.

He was then working as a carpenter for a custom house builder. He knew that life was very short to do something that he didn't totally enjoy doing. Prior to marrying my mother, he had a singing/ musical career in his home country. He sang and performed with a musical group part-time during my childhood but it was just to keep his skills up.

It took him five years of reducing his expenses, saving money and then he assembled musicians and became a full-time, self-employed musician. He only worked about 20 hours a week but he earned enough to support himself. He was always home (it annoyed me as a teenager) and he had loads of time off to simply enjoy his life. In his later years, he stopped singing but had two musical groups on the go and earned a management fee. He simply did all the bookings and all the work that he needed to do to keep the business going and he was over-worked if he worked 10 hours/ week. He continued this until his death at age 75.

My mother's death and my father's response to earn money doing what he loved has always resonated with me. For the past 10 years, my husband and I have done just that, been self-employed. We truly have the best of both worlds: we earn as much as we need & want and definitely work less than 25 hours/ week, we have never missed important events with our children, etc...

I could never go back to working for someone else for 40+ hours a week because this is what works for me and my family. I do appreciate it very much those people who do.

Also as I mentioned I do think that we work too much - however the main question is what mechanism of wealth distribution would we choose?
If we can choose to make 2 day weekends (when it was a 100 years ago 1 day) we can certainly choose to make it 3

There's still poverty and slums in many countries. But yes generally there is a much larger % of middle class now.

Double edged sword, as that's where most of the materialistic/consumerist arguments start to trickle in. At poverty line your sole purpose is survival. For the technology-enabled middle class masses... purpose could be nicer life, work life balance, rural living but not as a farmer etc.

So would you consider thing like slaving away in a job you hate to pay for private school fees or a foreign holiday for the family, materialistic?

I’ve had this exact same conversation with my husband so many times. It’s sad that we’re missing out on time together just to be at work even though we need to work to pay the bills and have money for leisure. One thing really brought it home to me recently though was when a colleague died. A very hard worker who was very conscientious. However, his work was just handed out to his team after his passing and his job advertised. Therefore, whilst we think work is so very important, we’re always replaceable so why worry so much?

@ssd

I think the pandemic made a lot if people question what we're doing. When everything was shut, life was more basic, and that wasnt necessarily a bad thing. I think the constant consumption needs to slow down, both for the environment and our mental health.

But lockdown hasn't been good for our mental health at all! Not being able to socialise, get a haircut, go to the gym, travel, or even get dental or medical treatment have all been very bad for our physical & mental wellbeing!

@Tzimi exactly!
Also a lot of things that are not materialistic (concerts, eating out, cinema) cost money. If there was more consumption of these things and less ‘stuff’ more people get money and everyone would be happy
*over simplifying of course but you get the gist

@Ticklemycarpets

I'm with the OP on this. I'm trying to find a name for for it so I can explore it further. A few posts back, some people were talking about it being similar to the FIRE movement, I've had a look but it's not what I'm looking for (too work hard, save hard for me).

I like my job but sitting at a desk for me is not 'living' so I want to work part time and enjoy life as I live it. For me the living is all the stuff that happens outside of work, time spent with the kids, friends, in nature etc.

So my thoughts are...the more I purchase, the more I need to work to be able to afford all these things. If I live a more frugal life, I can work less. Plus it is more environmentally friendly as less is produced.

Is there a name for that (besides just being a bit of a hippy )?

This is very similar to my thoughts when I started the thread.

I'm obviously discussing it from a very basic start point as it's such a big topic, and undoubtedly there are many factors I'm not even considering, like the peripheral industries needed to maintain necessary things like national security and policing.

However, I think just reflecting on it is a start as it often seems like we just take it for granted. For example, most people are contracted to work 40 hours a week. That's a very specific figure and seems quite different from 'working until the job's done'.

Part of what started this in my head was the fact that our drivers are paid a 9.5 hour shift regardless of how long it takes them. At one point they'd just go home as long after checking there was nothing else to help with. Our employer has now reminded them that it's not job and knock, so we have loads of guys who sit around for 2-3 hours in the canteen at the end of their round just because they're paid for it and expected to.

On Sunday we had a walk round a nearby village and a look round the churchyard. The amount of parents burying their children, one after the other in a matter of weeks, was a very sad reality up until more modern times in the UK at least.
Modern life isn't rubbish we have modern medicine including the pill and we have choices and freedom. This has only improved in the last 50 years. I feel lucky to live in an era of high life expectancy.

it's really not worth it at all.

I've always largely opted out of modern life but since covid ive opted out even more. I just have no interest in 'stuff' and 'things' and going out throwing money down the drain. It's really helped put everything in perspective of what i want from life and it has shown that even my not quite modern life was far too hectic and stressful and completely not worth it.

A simpler life has made us so much happier! Brought us together, less bickering, less stress, less waste, less spending. I do not want the modern life people seem to think i should have.

But lockdownhasn'tbeen good for our mental health at all! Not being able to socialise, get a haircut, go to the gym, travel, or even get dental or medical treatment have all been verybadfor our physical & mental wellbeing!

But I bet a lot of people would be happy to cut their week in half!

I'll admit I do like technology, but only when it serves a purpose.

I used to have an expensive phone contract which I upgraded every 18 months just because I could. However, I've now had the same Samsung phone for nearly five years now. It's in a ruggedised case with glass screen protector which I've replaced twice, so is in nearly new condition underneath, and it's still perfectly adequate for using Netflix and Spotify etc.

I reckon we've almost reached the stage of diminishing returns with phone resolutions. There are 4k phones now but nobody needs that pixel density on a 4-5 inch screen - many experts say it's pointless on pc monitors under 28" and that 1440p is a better option (which is my phone's res).

Same with my vehicle. I've got an 11' plate pickup truck and thought about replacing it but decided against it. It's only got 80k on the clock which is nothing for a truck (only considered high mileage at 200k) and the bodywork is still great as I've kept on top of stone chips and had it undersealed to prevent corrosion. When I went to get a new bulb the other day, the mechanic thought it was only 2-3 years old!

But previously I used to do PCP and just trade it in every three years, usually with less than 20k on the clock and still looking brand new as I keep my cars well maintained.

@malificent7

A friend made a good point....technology is supposed to make our lives easier and free up leisure time...so why arent we working less?

Yes I remember being in high school in the late 70's and being told that with the computers being developed we'll have a short working week of maybe 4 days and life will be easier. Then in the same breath told I couldn't be part of the computer class that had started as it was a boy class only. We moved rural, had Chickens and did the back to nature type thing, great way to raise the kids. I've never had luck growing veg, so I would give away eggs and neighbours gave us Asparagus and courgettes and even deer meat. Baked all meals from scratch, baked bread, cloth nappies, you name it. For me, it's the plastic everywhere and on everything that really bothers me, there must be a way to do better.

For me, it's the plastic everywhere and on everything that really bothers me, there must be a way to do better.

You'd hate to see the landfill sites I go to!

Worst of all is that I work with the biggest UK collector of commercial recycling and over 40% of their recyclable materials ends up in landfill too because of cross contamination (e.g. cardboard spoiled by food waste).

@OrangeRug

I agree with you.

I had a conversation with my Dad a few months ago about society and mental illness. I posed the question - are more people mentally ill these days or is it just that it's talked about more? Probably a mixture of both. I think our society breeds poor mental health. we work all the time, constantly compete and compare ourselves on social media, always want the latest gadget or handbag. It's all so meaningless. Doesn't help when we're constantly bombarded with negative/scaremongering media too.

I think I'd be a lot happier being closer to nature - living in a cottage somewhere remote with lots of animals, growing my own food.

But that will never happen!

I do think mental health is much more talked about but maybe not as much as needed still. I agree that social media plays a huge part in mental health issues, more so for the younger generation who know only life with social media and I think there is so much pressure on them to look as perfect as other portray themselves to be and I have to say that I am glad I have a son, not a daughter who feels the need to try to compete with the fake photoshopped, filtered utter lies of photos churned out on social media. I do have 3 social media accounts, 2 for work and for personal but I have no interest in celebrity and influencers or anyone that needs to filter the shit out of themselves.

I think about this all the time. You're completely right to question it. It's entirely wrong and I've no doubt contributes to the high levels of inner dissatisfaction and mental illness. I've watched a few documentaries on this and many traditional tribes from today and years ago who rely on hunter gathering did and do not allocate the number of hours to labour as we do in modern society. I feel like we've all been brainwashed and are sleepwalking through life. Getting out of this is so difficult as life is currently set up to make alternative approaches to living pretty difficult.

I think another difference is that, despite times being harder, I'd imagine people in the distant past worked to achieve what they needed and then stopped for the day. By contrast, we generally don't.

In my previous job, if I finished a proposal early I'd just get lumbered with another one - my boss would say "great, I thought we'd have to skip this one but now you can take it". There was never a situation where the work was finished because it wasn't a finite goal - the objective was maximising profit. So, if I worked three times as fast as my colleagues I wouldn't work a third of the hours, I'd do three times as much work!

I see what you mean but everyone’s different. I love my job and city life and shopping. I don’t feel like I am wasting my time or life following those pursuits as they make me happy. The thought of living off the land with no technology and reverting to the simple life in the countryside fills me with dread!

I think this is an interesting topic. I was previously working in a typical corporate office job and though loved the people I worked with, hated the job. It was stressful and contributed absolutely nothing to the world, or even the company if I'm honest. I think there are so many bullshit jobs and it can be very disheartening if you're working in one and I felt very ground down by it. I'm currently working as an environmental economist and I love my job. Much less pressure, I'm in charge of my own hours and level of output and genuinely feel like I'm contributing something. I do try to reduce my consumption as much as I can for environmental reasons, I'm not perfect, I buy things just because I want to etc but I try to get better. As someone said- not buying something is like giving yourself a tax free pay rise. I certainly am extremely grateful that I live in a time and a place that allows me the freedom to navel gaze and bemoan my pretty cushy life. And I know from experience the stress of surviving as the child of a small farmer in a rural area, it certainly was far more stressful for my parents than my "ugh, who cares about this report" office job.

@bemusedmoose

it's really not worth it at all.

I've always largely opted out of modern life but since covid ive opted out even more. I just have no interest in 'stuff' and 'things' and going out throwing money down the drain. It's really helped put everything in perspective of what i want from life and it has shown that even my not quite modern life was far too hectic and stressful and completely not worth it.

A simpler life has made us so much happier! Brought us together, less bickering, less stress, less waste, less spending. I do not want the modern life people seem to think i should have.

But you haven't opted out of modern life at all, you just have the modern life you want. Because modern life allows you that freedom.

@MrsTroutfireVII so I've been mulling this over. I would see friends taking their kids to Lapland or Florida, or having beautiful bathrooms and kitchens fitted and feel that this is what I should be striving for.

We have an outdated but functioning bathroom. The cost of a smart refit would be my whole salary for a year and that doesn't weigh up for me.

I now feel that even with the money to spare, I would prefer to use that kind of money for more days of living a freer life. That might mean fewer hours working or working in a job which has less pay but is more fulfilling.
I think the majority of people strive to achieve more, earn more and be able to spend more.

I think that advertising and the consumer culture perpetuate the myth that being able to afford nice things is the ultimate goal, but there is no evidence that it leads to happiness.

Wealth and happiness are linked only to the point of no longer having to struggle for the basics. Beyond that, the things that make people happy long term are not material things.

Yes it’s actually a serious issue. My kids are now adults but being a working mum was soul destroying and exhausting. I would have given anything to spend more time not working. I think the tables are turning, or maybe that is wishful thinking.

The confusion on this thread is epic...all this talk of modern life is rubbish, we work too hard, we want more leisure and fun....That is what modern life IS! Never before have so many people had so much leisure time and so little work.
If you want to work less and have more free time, you are looking simply for the ultimate in modern life. And you should really stop complaining when you have so much already, universal healthcare, endless education, vast range of food and leisure and entertainment.
You have more than any humans have ever had, and comparing yourself to ancient hunter gatherers is frankly pathetic and rather offensive.