To ask honestly if you feel sorry for these women?

[LemonSherbetFancies]

Who are approaching 40 and single with no kids?
I know a few in this situation and they always say they feel judged and inferior to women of that age who do.
Personally, I do not feel sorry for them if they do not have kids as they are not for everyone. But I do feel for women who don't have a supportive and loving relationship. Now, I am not saying women need a man to be happy but I know from myself how much nicer my life is with DP in it.

By that logic, you of course aren't taking your husband's name, but his father's name. Do you have brothers? Have they all taken their wife's name rather than their father's?

His father was an arsehole too, if I'm honest. Worse in many ways. My grandmother remarried after he died and wasn't sorry to lose the name.

I did have a brother, but not any more. He didn't take his wife's name, but I think he might have done if it had been completely culturally acceptable and not raised any eyebrows, just an accepted norm, like when women do it. He didn't like our father any more than I did.

I mean, I do follow this argument. It makes sense. And needless to say, I respect whatever choice a married woman makes. But it's not always the case that we change our names to be a subsumed little wifey. The reasons are personal.

I use the title Ms because I dislike being defined by my marital status. You don't know if I'm married just from the fact I have a surname.

I'm 39 and single. I have never felt judged. But I feel terribly sad that I've not met anyone and time is running out. I am worried about being completely alone in years to come with no family at all. As my sister has never wanted children, so no nephews or nieces.

I mean, I do follow this argument. It makes sense. And needless to say, I respect whatever choice a married woman makes. But it's not always the case that we change our names to be a subsumed little wifey. The reasons are personal.

Perhaps, but the fact remains that only women have these 'reasons'. Not even the most right-on, 'feminist ally' man would take his wife's name and drop his own. You'll hear women saying 'Oh I took my husband's name because my own name is ugly/difficult to pronounce/dull" or whatever. But an equal number of men will have those same ugly names and virtually none of them would even consider taking a woman's name.

Obviously, it's up to each woman what she does. But let's not pretend it's a neutral decision. It's a relic of the tradition whereby on marriage, 'ownership' of a woman shifts from her father to her husband.

There are blokes also who are single and child free. In either case, it's easy to feel sympathy if life hasn't worked out how to they had hoped for but it's horses for courses. Many are quite happy in that situation as they have freedom to do whatever they want.

I'm late thirties and actually I wish people talked more about how this can be such a high pressured time for women.

If you do want to have a partner, and a child, there's this weird period of intensity where it must happen - its easy enough to be casual and focus on career and friends and casual dating till you're early thirties, but then the world and its mother needs to point out that you have a ten year window that's slowly closing. And it is ok to want these things, and it is frustrating that so many men get a free pass as if they leave it 'too late' to have all this with a peer they can just hook up with a woman from a younger generation and it will all be fine.

I have a husband, and a child, and I in no way look down upon friends who are single but. if I"m honest, I do sometimes wonder where I don't know the situation and people don't have children if its their choice. Weirdly I don't feel that way about partners, as you can meet and have a happy relationship at any age. But its hard if you want kids and can't have them, at one point I thought I'd be in that situation myself so while I know many people aren't it is something in my mind.

I have a friend, and a cousin, who are late thirties, single, and have always wanted kids, and I do feel almost frustrated on their behalf that the fact they may not meet the right person in the next 3-5 years may stop them having kids. On the other hand, I have a friend the same age who has decided she may want a partner one day but definitely doesn't want a child, and another who would like a relationship and if timing works out wouldn't mind a child but won't be heartbroken if it doesn't happen, and they both have incredibly great lives and I can't imagine how or why anyone would feel sorry for them.

And agree with other posters: many, many men of my acquaintance where I think their OHs may be better off single, but again, not for me to judge.

I have a husband, and a child, and I in no way look down upon friends who are single but. if I"m honest, I do sometimes wonder where I don't know the situation and people don't have children if its their choice. Weirdly I don't feel that way about partners, as you can meet and have a happy relationship at any age. But its hard if you want kids and can't have them, at one point I thought I'd be in that situation myself so while I know many people aren't it is something in my mind.

Of course there are women - and men - who would like children but couldn't have them, either for medical reasons or because they didn't meet the right person.

However, there are also a lot of us out there who see nothing desirable whatsoever about having children and certainly don't feel that we're 'missing out'. Quite the opposite. An afternoon in the company of friends who are parents just confirms that I made the right decision to remain childfree. And I'm far from the only one.

@IcedPurple

I mean, I do follow this argument. It makes sense. And needless to say, I respect whatever choice a married woman makes. But it's not always the case that we change our names to be a subsumed little wifey. The reasons are personal.

Perhaps, but the fact remains that only women have these 'reasons'. Not even the most right-on, 'feminist ally' man would take his wife's name and drop his own. You'll hear women saying 'Oh I took my husband's name because my own name is ugly/difficult to pronounce/dull" or whatever. But an equal number of men will have those same ugly names and virtually none of them would even consider taking a woman's name.

Obviously, it's up to each woman what she does. But let's not pretend it's a neutral decision. It's a relic of the tradition whereby on marriage, 'ownership' of a woman shifts from her father to her husband.

Yes, there's no denying that, which is why the argument makes sense. I can only say that nobody I know thinks of it this way any more (and if they do, the name is the least of their worries). The tradition remains, though, so if you do like the idea of sacking off the shit associated with your family name, it's a very easy and acceptable way to do it. I felt that if it was a choice between my father's name or my husband's, it was no contest. At least I chose to be related to my husband.

If it existed as an established tradition for men too and wouldn't cause any reaction or difficulty, as is the case for women, I do think a fair number of them would do it.

I’m a late 30s spinster. My choice, please don’t anyone feel sorry for me. It’s not like I haven’t had options.
I feel sorry for some of my friends who are in bad or abusive relationships though.

@IcedPurple

I have a husband, and a child, and I in no way look down upon friends who are single but. if I"m honest, I do sometimes wonder where I don't know the situation and people don't have children if its their choice. Weirdly I don't feel that way about partners, as you can meet and have a happy relationship at any age. But its hard if you want kids and can't have them, at one point I thought I'd be in that situation myself so while I know many people aren't it is something in my mind.

Of course there are women - and men - who would like children but couldn't have them, either for medical reasons or because they didn't meet the right person.

However, there are also a lot of us out there who see nothing desirable whatsoever about having children and certainly don't feel that we're 'missing out'. Quite the opposite. An afternoon in the company of friends who are parents just confirms that I made the right decision to remain childfree. And I'm far from the only one.

I know - but that's rather my point. I have friends who are cheerily childfree, and perhaps more concerningly, friends who always said they wanted to stay child free then wobbled and had a child as they approached 40. I have no concerns about the first group, more about the second - I totally understand why people wouldn't want to have children.

But I would say of women of my acquaintance in that age range who I know well enough to 'know' its 50/50 between choosing to be child-free/single, and ending up that way through circumstances outside their control. Its never appropriate to quiz people about things so intimate but I don't think its unusual to wonder which category they're in either.

And to be honest, I'm pretty much always hoping their in the 'choosing to be happily chid free' camp - I want to be a parent, but it is exhausting and unrelenting. I literally cannot imagine what it would be like if it wasn't entirely an enthusiastic choice, and I do think its good that society seems to be moving towards children being an active choice rather than something that almost inevitably will happen to people.

This thread reminds me of how the media and people treated Julia Gillard. First female prime minister of Australia and she had to listen to her colleagues and the media rally about how unfit she was for office as she didn't have kids, men and women constantly disparaging her childless status, and other women talking about how much they pity her because she apparently doesn't know what she's missing out on.

Horrible to see how the world is still filled with people who think a women's happiness and worth is dependent on whether she's a mother or not.

If it existed as an established tradition for men too and wouldn't cause any reaction or difficulty, as is the case for women, I do think a fair number of them would do it.

Traditions only become established by people taking part in these traditions for a long time. Traditions change, and new ones arise over time. It used to be the tradition - well within living memory - that women stopped working after marriage and needed the permission of their husbands to work or open a bank account. That's no longer a tradition because women struggled against it, often dealing with great social opprobrium and hardship in order to do so.

So my point is that if men actually wanted to take on a woman's name and abandon their own, they're free to do so. Yes, it would be considered odd and perhaps invite ridicule (which tells you a lot about the nature of this 'tradition') but if enough men wanted to do it, over time it would become acceptable, just as it's now acceptable for women to retain their own names on marriage. But men don't want to do it. Not even the wokest, most feminist men consider it appropriate to adopt their wife's name.

I've known of one man who changed his surname to his wife's surname because he worked in education and he was aware that the kids took the mick out of his original name.
It's the only one I've ever heard of though and that was only done as there was a reason behind it.
Actresses ( famous ones anyway ) nearly always keep their original surnames , even years ago.
I guess you could 'double barrel' the surname if you want ?

I know a few men who double barreled and one who joined his name with his wife's to form a new one that they both used. Both names were short and worked well together, though, like Green and Wood, or Clear and Water.

YABVU not everyone has the same opinion, you come across as smug. Ever thought those women look at you and feel a bit sorry for you?

Everyone takes a different view on life. I did not have my kids until I was in my 40s. If it had not happened for me I would have still been quite happy. Feels a bit judgy to see one version of happiness as an absolute to me. We as women do not always do ourselves any favours when we start to judge others (working/SAHM), (children/no children) etc.

@H2OConnoisseur

This thread reminds me of how the media and people treated Julia Gillard. First female prime minister of Australia and she had to listen to her colleagues and the media rally about how unfit she was for office as she didn't have kids, men and women constantly disparaging her childless status, and other women talking about how much they pity her because she apparently doesn't know what she's missing out on.

Horrible to see how the world is still filled with people who think a women's happiness and worth is dependent on whether she's a mother or not.

I went right off Sigourney Weaver when she opined that she felt sorry for Katharine Hepburn because she never had children. Katharine Hepburn was a great feminist and 20 times the actor that Weaver will ever be.

Katharine Hepburn believed that no actor should get married, that they should concentrate everything on the work.

OP are you a Daily Mail reader as they think the same about single, childless women. You'd feel more at home over there.

Do you feel sorry for single/childless men too OP?

@H2OConnoisseur

This thread reminds me of how the media and people treated Julia Gillard. First female prime minister of Australia and she had to listen to her colleagues and the media rally about how unfit she was for office as she didn't have kids, men and women constantly disparaging her childless status, and other women talking about how much they pity her because she apparently doesn't know what she's missing out on.

Horrible to see how the world is still filled with people who think a women's happiness and worth is dependent on whether she's a mother or not.

And let’s not forget Andrea ‘as a mother’ Leadsom.

It wouldn't even cross my mind to feel sorry for them

I don't think there's anything wrong with being single

It's a bit sad that some people are so afraid to be alone... if anything I would admire a woman who is 40 and single, she is happy with herself... she isn't putting up with some shit man. The women I feel sorry for are the ones in relationships with men who don't treat them with respect, you know, the kinds of women who are treated like slaves. Those women deserve our compassion.

Yes! I think that about most of my friends' relationships, and sometimes think they could do so much better. They're happy though, so providing they don't keep trying to get me to settle down (the operative word being settle) then we're all good

One of the women at work ( no kids) has a “World’s Greatest Dog Mum” mug. I think it is one of the saddest things I have ever seen.

Why? She's probably perfectly happy being a "Dog Mum". Not everyone wants children - and if that's one of the saddest things you've ever seen then you have lived a very sheltered life.

@Temp023

Why ?