To ask honestly if you feel sorry for these women?

[LemonSherbetFancies]

Who are approaching 40 and single with no kids?
I know a few in this situation and they always say they feel judged and inferior to women of that age who do.
Personally, I do not feel sorry for them if they do not have kids as they are not for everyone. But I do feel for women who don't have a supportive and loving relationship. Now, I am not saying women need a man to be happy but I know from myself how much nicer my life is with DP in it.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop I could have written this word for word.

I'm in my 60s, single, no kids, don't own my home, work part-time - and I'm happier than many others I know. Why on earth would you feel sorry for someone who doesn't have a partner or kids? Maybe you would if they desperately wanted them, but many don't. I was married once - never again, I like my independence.

I 'feel' for women who lack intelligence, wit and empathy. I'm sure you have some other qualities though OP.

Your post is patronising AF.

I don't doubt most women who choose to have children are happy with that choice. I also don't doubt that most women who choose to remain single and childfree are also happy with that choice. But given high divorce rates - about 70% of which are initiated by women, and the fact that divorced women are half as likely to express a desire to remarry than divorced men - then it's obvious that marriage very often fails to bring happiness, especially for women.

There is however evidence that couples without children are happier as couples than couples with children. So maybe it’s not quite as simple as marriage failing to bring happiness.

If you feel you have to defend your status so violently, are you that happy? If you feel the need to generalise so much, are you trying to convince others or yourself/

Happy and content people are generally a lot more chilled out.

@CounsellorTroi

I don't doubt most women who choose to have children are happy with that choice. I also don't doubt that most women who choose to remain single and childfree are also happy with that choice. But given high divorce rates - about 70% of which are initiated by women, and the fact that divorced women are half as likely to express a desire to remarry than divorced men - then it's obvious that marriage very often fails to bring happiness, especially for women.

There is however evidence that couples without children are happier as couples than couples with children. So maybe it’s not quite as simple as marriage failing to bring happiness.

I can absolutely believe this. Children are magical, wonderful horrors and they do throw a grenade into your relationship, at least temporarily.

I wouldn't be without my daughter but I can absolutely understand why it's not a sacrifice everyone wants to make. I didn't want to make it for a long time.

You sound very judgemental as do your 'social circle'

I’m 40, childless and not married. I guess I best go throw myself off a bridge or something?!

But given high divorce rates - about 70% of which are initiated by women, and the fact that divorced women are half as likely to express a desire to remarry than divorced men - then it's obvious that marriage very often fails to bring happiness, especially for women.

This is a really central point and worth unpicking a bit.

Women are relentlessly pushed into thinking that marriage is the pinnacle of their lifetime achievement and the only way to achieve real happiness, and yet research of this sort consistently tends to show women get a lot less satisfaction throughout the lifetime of a marriage than men do.

We really need to rethink a lot of the rhetoric about marriage. Aside from the "insurance" it provides to SAHMs, which is undeniably important if they want to take time off to rear children, its often such a limiting thing for women in so many ways. High time we started educating girls properly in this.

There is however evidence that couples without children are happier as couples than couples with children. So maybe it’s not quite as simple as marriage failing to bring happiness.

But are childfree married women happier than childfree single women?

In any case, we're speaking in broad generalisms. Women can be happy single, married, with children, without children. However, only one of these lifestyles - marriage and children - is commonly touted as the desirable way for women to live. This despite the fact that there is plenty of evidence that this lifestyle does not work out well for a significant number of women.

Women are relentlessly pushed into thinking that marriage is the pinnacle of their lifetime achievement and the only way to achieve real happiness, and yet research of this sort consistently tends to show women get a lot less satisfaction throughout the lifetime of a marriage than men do.

Yes - marriage is sold as the goal of a woman's life, whereas men are trained to think that marriage is 'tying them down'. Think of that old misogynistic expression of a wife as a 'ball and chain'. And yet marriage is very good for men in terms of mental and physical health, as well as job prospects. The same is not true for women.

My ex colleague always used to say she felt like a failure next to a married mum of 3 who had a high flying career while she was single, no kids and was in a low paying job

Well, if she wanted a relationship and kids and a better job, that would be pretty sad for her. If she didn't want those things, it wouldn't.

Seems pretty striaghtforward: if I knew someone was involuntarily childless or single etc, I would feel sad for them. If I knew they were single and/or childfree by choice, I'd be happy for them. If I didn't know which I would mind my own business and not think about it.

@IcedPurple

Women are relentlessly pushed into thinking that marriage is the pinnacle of their lifetime achievement and the only way to achieve real happiness, and yet research of this sort consistently tends to show women get a lot less satisfaction throughout the lifetime of a marriage than men do.

Yes - marriage is sold as the goal of a woman's life, whereas men are trained to think that marriage is 'tying them down'. Think of that old misogynistic expression of a wife as a 'ball and chain'. And yet marriage is very good for men in terms of mental and physical health, as well as job prospects. The same is not true for women.

I think these are really important points. I don't feel that my goal as such was ever marriage. However I suspect I did buy into the idea that marriage is almost a security of happiness when I married Exdh. With DP its the other way around. I will marry him when I feel we are sustainably happy (with no guarantees of course anything can change) and I know now that marriage makes no difference to happiness at all.

Security ? Yes , Legal protection? of course. But I do think one of the greatest lies women were sold was that marriage itself would make you happy. All of the rhetoric around marriage is the same . It all implies that happiness will increase with the very act of marriage. We started to believe it and when it goes wrong we blame ourselves (in some cases obviously I'm generalising ) that we didn't "Do it right" because marriage is happy right? So what did I do wrong?

I do believe in the legal protection of marriage for some women but not the amotional panacea it is sold as.

*Women are relentlessly pushed into thinking that marriage is the pinnacle of their lifetime achievement and the only way to achieve real happiness

Are they though? I've certainly never thought so and nobody has ever given me that impression. I don't think its a common opinion against younger women either.
I feel like this is a very old fashioned notion.

I was a young teen in the 1970s and by then my siblings had both married young ( they were older than me and both married by the time they were 23) They had nice homes and children and seemed so happy it sort of became my life's work to have the same.
My own parents were fairly happily married too.
I think I just had an idealistic view of the whole institution of marriage ( one both my parents and siblings seemed to also endorse as the way to go)
I often think if I hadn't these huge influences maybe I wouldn't have worried so much about it snd not been in a rush to settle down snd have children?
A few of my friends were the same though so maybe it was just how it was back then ?
I was just so naive I think and been a bit sheltered from real life plus everyone I knew had a boyfriend or husband too!
I love my two children but I do cringe at how much I just wanted to conform back then I think ? Maybe it's just a trap we all fall into ?
The whole marriage / children / home set up ?
Been women I know who have walked away from their marriages end up in new relationships so some of it is ingrained too I guess.
I admire people who don't conform to be honest.

@IcedPurple

Women are relentlessly pushed into thinking that marriage is the pinnacle of their lifetime achievement and the only way to achieve real happiness, and yet research of this sort consistently tends to show women get a lot less satisfaction throughout the lifetime of a marriage than men do.

Yes - marriage is sold as the goal of a woman's life, whereas men are trained to think that marriage is 'tying them down'. Think of that old misogynistic expression of a wife as a 'ball and chain'. And yet marriage is very good for men in terms of mental and physical health, as well as job prospects. The same is not true for women.

I think it’s having children that is pushed as the goal of a woman’s life to be honest. Plenty of people have them without getting g married.

I do believe in the legal protection of marriage for some women but not the amotional panacea it is sold as.

I agree with that. If a woman is going to have children, and especially if she intends to give up or cut down on work to be with them, then marriage provides her and her children with important legal and financial protection.

However, the idea that marriage will make you happy is a very modern one. Until quite recently, marriage was seen in much more pragmatic terms. It still is in many parts of the world. I think if women saw marriage in less romantic terms, and asked themselves if it really was the right choice for them, many would be better off.

Jealous of them maybe
Sorry for them no

One of my colleagues took the ' pragmatic' approach. They both wanted the same things , he had some money and she wanted her debts paid off and the nice house and children and holidays etc. it sadly didn't work out for them but it was a good set up for both of them (for a while at least. )

I think it sounds fabulous, op, this post is very patronising. They might feel for you, being tied down and not being able to do whatever you fancy.

@Megplant

I usually feel sorry for women who have to live with their rotten grumpy husbands I've never seen a marriage I'd want to be a part of though - plenty of the women seem happy enough whilst I'm thinking 'HOW CAN YOU STAND HIM!?' (Plenty of times I feel similarly for the husband).

I didn't realise how looked down on single childfree women are until recently - I think I was very naïve about it due to never envying anyone their husband or their children.
I knew that plenty of women don't like to be single, but I thought that was due to a mix of wanting someone to cuddle/have sex with (understandable) and well, them being a bit pathetic and not being that functional alone.
Then, I found out that a friend genuinely thought that single women were of lower social status, and that it was a main driver of her reasons to desire a relationship. Many of her friends felt the same. It's way more common that I'd realised.

I ditched the friend, and would never associate with someone who thinks single women are of lower status, because I think it's a deeply offensive and absolutely vile way to think.

Same here.