AIBU to ask SAHD to clean?

[RunningAtStuff]

I work FT and my OH is a SAHD, we have three DCs, two at primary, one just at secondary and eldest has additional needs.
Before lockdown we had a cleaner once a week. Through lockdown we were dividing all chores as he was doing home schooling and I was working long hours from home.
Now schools are open again but I’m still wfh I don’t want a cleaner - it feels lazy (and I’m a little bit Covid paranoid about having someone in the house). But I’m doing most of (all) the cleaning at weekends. OH does all the cooking, kids stuff and we share the laundry.
AIBU to ask him to do the cleaning too and not pay for a cleaner? It feels like he just doesn’t notice when things are dirty and is comfortable with a higher level of chaos than I am, so I feel like it’s my problem and therefore my job to do. I do want him to have a break and time to himself and I know the time the kids are actually at school isn’t that long so maybe it’s unrealistic?

Maybe it’s just trial and error of how much is achievable now some normality is resuming

Trial, error, and on-going conversations. It's not unreasonable to ask at all, but all transitions take time. It might be an idea to bring particularly the oldest child into the house cleaning conversation too.

I definitely had some bumps with transitioning to SAHP, though for me it was in large part to ill health, but it was also just trying to find my feet and figure things out as our routines had altered so much. There have been times when I've need to be reminded of tasks that I just hadn't thought of to take things off his plate and the other way around (and sometimes the answer was to get rid of stuff or rearrange the environment to make it easier to manage).

My spouse had been the SAHP before that, and he still does most of the food shopping, the cooking, and tends to do things like a big sweep into the nooks and crannies or similar tasks where it helps not to have people underfoot on nights he's not working. I and our older children tend to do more day to day cleaning, laundry, and I do the vast majority of the house admin. It suits us, it's about finding which balance works for you both.

No adult in a partnership with kids should also have 20-30 extra leisure hours per week either.

This made me laugh as my spouse works full time nights 4 on/4 off - yeah he does some cleaning at nights, but with his schedule he has far more hours to himself than my at-home self has -- and that doesn't bother me. Some nights he spends just writing or painting or such & I think good for him. Neither of us need to put in additional hours as long as things are done, but the issue with OP is that certain cleaning isn't unless she's doing it. That needs to be brought up, not any need for the at-home parent to time watching.

@MrsTroutfire I do agree it should be seen as a more viable option for men to be SAHP as if it wasn't seen as weird or abnormal then families could pick the arrangement that suited them best (whether that be both parents working or one staying home). This would be better for everyone. It's never going to happen though until the pay gap is completely abolished, everyone working is paid a proper living wage and maternity/paternity leave isn't seen as a drain on business. I think a lot of the stigma around SAHDs is to do with the fact childcare and domestic labour is seen as women's work and therefore not valuable. So actually, as a feminist and a SAHM, I wish there were more SAHDs and it was normalised. At one point my DH was the SAHD while I worked and he was the only dad we knew who was doing it.

@shouldistop

Surely he should get a job now that all the DC are at school...

A 10am til 2pm term time one that can fit in with their disabled child's needs? I'm sure he'll just magic that right up after being out of the workplace for however long caring for their children.

Op he should definitely be doing the housework / laundry etc while the kids are all at school. Even taking school runs into account he has 4 hours a day of free time to do it.

But many women look for and find just such a job. Why should he not hve the bother of looking just becasue they are scarce, may not be well paid or much fun?

But yes, he has a minumum of 4 hours a day, 5 days a week to do whatever he likes. No kids, no chores, no responsibilities. Do you get that much free time?

If he isn't cleaning, doing laundry etc who does? And how much does it cut into what could be quality family time?

You both need to recalibrate your expectations now. And he is going to have to accept that, just as many other SAHPs do, he is going to be the allocated cleaner and needs to adjust his own expectations of those 4 empty house hours a day!

you absolutely won't find a thread anywhere with a similar number of 'Lads that Lunch' talking about how their wife works 80 hour weeks whilst they enjoy their hobbies. I say this with confidence without having even looked. Oddly I could invite you to a hobby forum where 2 men are curretnly doing just that!

Their wives are at work 6 days a week covering bills. These men 'did their share over the years' and are now relaxing into their quite expensive hobby whilst "she finds out just how hard it was for me!" or "I am enjoying the same down time as she did when she didn't work because of the kids"

I am almost decided to screenshot it and send it to one of them (I do know her) as I know she is concerned over money and can't see how she can afford to retire!

Actually, I will do it!

But yes, he has a minumum of 4 hours a day, 5 days a week to do whatever he likes. No kids, no chores, no responsibilities. Do you get that much free time? I’m not sure where the “minimum four hours a day” comes from.. How do you know that? OP says quite clearly one child is up in the night, he does all the cooking and shopping plus “heavy stuff” (I’m guessing gardening/DIY/bins). What about the additional needs related support/paperwork? Who does after school activities? Is it really the expectation that OP just sits at computer/phone and that’s her total contribution???

I’m not sure where the “minimum four hours a day” comes from.confused. How do you know that? OP says quite clearly one child is up in the night, he does all the cooking and shopping plus “heavy stuff” (I’m guessing gardening/DIY/bins). OP says he doesn't clean. He cooks and does kids stuff.

I am self employed. DH works away a lot.

Today I have put the bins out; painted 2 walls in a bedroom; gone shopping as well as completed 2 reports and my own invoicing. I have also walked the dog twice and put DHs washing through ready for him when he comes back as he has a quick turnaround this week. I'll cook my own tea in a couple of hours and take the dog out again.

I have also spent about an hour on here, am about to toddle off to the library and might spend another hour or so on my hobby before settling in front of the telly with the dog.

Only the painting took more than an hour! Everything else was done in short bursts.

He can get a similar amount done whilst OP is out of the home at work.

The question isn't whether the OP is doing enough - she said she is doing most of the cleaning as well as a full time job.

The question is whether he, and any other SAHP, should be the one who does the majority of the housework once the kids are all at school In the absence of anything else the only answer is, surely, yes!

That still leaves him hours a week to do kids admin and 'heavy stuff' and any hobby he has!

As a househusband he should be doing everything.

“However, as I said earlier, you absolutely won't find a thread anywhere with a similar number of 'Lads that Lunch' talking about how their wife works 80 hour weeks whilst they enjoy their hobbies. I say this with confidence without having even looked.

The point is that a fair number of women have the choice whilst men almost never do. Neither sex generally seems to respect a man who doesn't 'fulfil his potential'.”

@MrsTroutfire - I’m a SAHM and have been for nearly 18 years and I totally agree with you. My situation (SAHM who doesn’t need to work) is very common where I live. But what can tell you is this - no marriage will work long-term where one side feels resentful.

My DH hasn’t had time in the weekdays to do his hobbies or kick back - no. But the point is, this wouldn’t have suited him and he would have gone crazy. The way he has taken his “me time” over the years is different. For instance, he’ll have no qualms about going off for a week to climb a mountain or whatever, whereas I would feel guilty doing that. So we both get our “me time,” but it just manifests differently and in a way that suits our personalities, I guess. Probably, we both feel like we are the one getting the better deal

My husband is extremely career-driven and I would say he’s a workaholic. This is his personality and there’s not much I can do about it. So I’ve just accepted it and luckily, the life this brings has suited me on the whole. Obviously nothing is perfect and many women would want different things from a husband, but I would have hated to not be able to make my kids my daily focus, so overall it’s suited me and no regrets. Probably this is why our marriage works, to be honest. His self-identity is very much tied up with his career and also the financial provider role, so if the cap fits, then just let them wear it because life is too short to be trying to change people into something they’re not. That my take on it anyway. We don’t resent each other taking time for ourselves. I’ve always had a cleaner and I think the OP should get one. I e always had access to all finances and we don’t think in terms of who earned what as we’re a family and our focus is the kids. That’s why we do it, otherwise what’s the point? If my DH wanted to retire tomorrow (he 50) he absolutely could now, but he’s an entrepreneur and always involved in all sorts at any one time and I can’t even keep track. So if that’s what he feels the need to do, I just let him get on with it. When he wants to go in one of his extreme hobbies trips or cycling 100 miles at the weekends, I’m happy for him to do so.

The question is whether he, and any other SAHP, should be the one who does the majority of the housework once the kids are all at school In the absence of anything else the only answer is, surely, yes!. I think you can divvy up the work any way you like but frankly if your husband is toddling off to work in clothes you launder from a house you clean and maintain and expects you to to do all the household chores and look after the children then I think he’s the one being lazy.

but frankly if your husband is toddling off to work in clothes you launder from a house you clean and maintain and expects you to to do all the household chores and look after the children then I think he’s the one being lazy. Me and mine specifically? That isn't out set up at all. No kids for a start. Which is why I wrote that sentence you quoted as I did - in the absence of anything else.

@Marble2302

As a househusband he should be doing everything.

I'm a 'housewife'. As I said upthread I'm responsible for seeing stuff gets done. That doesn't mean I have to do it myself. I pay other people to do things I can't do such as servicing the cars and fitting a new boiler. I also pay people to do things I could do myself but don't want to such as decorating, cutting the grass and cleaning. I would do them if I couldn't afford outside help but (like the OP), we can afford it.

There are already plenty of downsides to being a housewife/SAHM. I'm not going to add to them by doing jobs I don't need to do myself.

The biggest benefit of having a SAHP is never having to worry about after school childcare or holiday childcare.

You can get jobs that fit around primary school kids - I have one! So I don't think people can use that as an excuse not to work when their kids are in school.

I don’t think you need to make an excuse not to be paid to work. Your life your choice.

I'm a SAHM and I would fucking love a cleaner. I hate cleaning. I've agreed with DH that it's a financial priority for when our household income improves, whether I'm working or not.

When my DH was a SAHD he definitely kept a cleaner house than I do as a baseline, but I also do more proactive stuff with the children than he did (so create more mess as well as having less time to clean). It's sort of swings and roundabouts about minimum levels of acceptability and optimum standards. It's not a black and white issue - it's about creating a home we're all happy to live in with a level of work we're each happy to do.

The biggest challenge, imo, is to simply agree on what needs doing how often. If you can thrash that out and reach genuine consensus, then agreeing who does what is much easier. The argument is always that Person A thinks the bathroom looks just fine as it is so they don't need to do anything more and Person B thinks it looks like a barn-meets-operating-theatre and needs cleaning five times as often but why should they always be the one to do it.

Agree on what needs doing when. Then divvy it up between you and possibly also a cleaner.

@Dontknowowt

You can get jobs that fit around primary school kids - I have one! So I don't think people can use that as an excuse not to work when their kids are in school.

Is "I don't want to and we don't need me to" a good enough reason?

@PerspicaciousGreen Hope you are EXTREMELY secure in your marriage then!

@5zeds It isn't a choice for most people?

@5zeds

I don’t think you need to make an excuse not to be paid to work. Your life your choice.

That doesn't make any sense.

“@PerspicaciousGreen Hope you are EXTREMELY secure in your marriage then!”

I know that wasn’t aimed at me, but what is the point of that statement? If you are a SAHM long-term, you have obviously considered your situation in the event of a marriage breakdown. Otherwise you wouldn’t be a long/term SAHM would you? Do you think I would have stopped working if it risked my own and my children’s future? The point is, you know full well that you would be in a strong financial position if the marriage ended because if the assets you have built up as a couple. If you don’t have the assets, don’t be a SAHM basically, because his salary would go with him and this is obvious. But you have things set up so you are protected into the future.

I’m a housewife and I love it. I do the majority of the cleaning and all the cooking as it is only fair.

[quote Dontknowowt]@PerspicaciousGreen Hope you are EXTREMELY secure in your marriage then![/quote]
Aww, bless your heart for your concern. Yes, very secure and perfectly financially secure even if he drops dead tomorrow. It is a choice for some people, you see, and working for money isn't actually an intrinsic moral good.

You think having a cleaner is lazy but you are complaining that you have to do it?

Yes. YABU. Just get a cleaner.

@Dontknowowt of course it is. For some people it is an EASIER choice but the vast majority of people choose to be a two income family and have less time and more cash, some choose the opposite less cash and more time. Those who can afford to outsource the things that make them unhappy can but obviously they will lose in some other way.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I’d be happy to explain if you could give some clue as to which part of the statement you’re struggling with.

@UserAtRandom

Can you afford a cleaner?

If this was a SAHM posting that she hated cleaning and they could easily afford a cleaner, everyone would be telling her to go for it, life was too short, if her husband didn't like it he could do the cleaning himself ...

To be honest, I wouldn't if she had time to do it. But then I don't really understand people who stay at home when the kids are at school unless there really is a lot of home management, which I appreciate in some families there really is. In ours it is not manageable with us both full time and I can foresee in the future a need for one of us to be at least part time if not completely stay at home helping the other with their diary management as well as household management during working hours