AIBU to ask SAHD to clean?

[RunningAtStuff]

I work FT and my OH is a SAHD, we have three DCs, two at primary, one just at secondary and eldest has additional needs.
Before lockdown we had a cleaner once a week. Through lockdown we were dividing all chores as he was doing home schooling and I was working long hours from home.
Now schools are open again but I’m still wfh I don’t want a cleaner - it feels lazy (and I’m a little bit Covid paranoid about having someone in the house). But I’m doing most of (all) the cleaning at weekends. OH does all the cooking, kids stuff and we share the laundry.
AIBU to ask him to do the cleaning too and not pay for a cleaner? It feels like he just doesn’t notice when things are dirty and is comfortable with a higher level of chaos than I am, so I feel like it’s my problem and therefore my job to do. I do want him to have a break and time to himself and I know the time the kids are actually at school isn’t that long so maybe it’s unrealistic?

I hadn’t expected quite so many responses - thanks for all the thoughts.
Our son with additional needs can be quite challenging and sleep is a luxury for both of us. That plus the stress and isolation of the last 12 months means the best path is probably the easiest one for us - as soon as we’ve had our second vaccines I reckon we’ll get a cleaner. I’ll probably be back in the office some of the time by then too so it will be easier to have someone come in.

If your husband is effectively the on-call parent for frequent night-time disturbances, it seems reasonable that he should get the opportunity to catch up on sleep during the daytime, and you take turns at the weekends if you’re not at work then.

Finally found the post I was looking for!

All the posters who claim that SAHM are always 'expected to pick up the slack' should read these comments from a previous mumsnet thread (collated by another poster not me).

My sil is 44, rich and has NEVER had a job, lucky her! She has no trouble filling her day and has a great life.

Dp earns the money then gives it to me. Why would I feel oppressed?

I haven't worked in 8 years and bloody love it! I got to go shopping without ds today and have a long lunch with a friend. Going to the gym now.

My friend is married to the son of a billionaire and sometimes I have to block her on social media because her life is one long holiday.

I dont work, I was able to be a sahm with my sons, both in 30s now. I lunch, dressmake, walk my dogs for miles, spend time with friends and family etc....
I also volunteer for a small homeless charity, something I am so passionate about, being literally close to home.
I feel totally fulfilled!

My DSis married a very high earner and has never worked a day in her life.

My DH works 80 hours a week for a signficant amount of money, which allows me to be a SAHM and indulge myself, allow me to do all of my volunteering and my hobbies.

I work just a few hours a week in a job I love doing, I don’t have to work for financial reasons. I’ve accidentally ended up with a really high earning DH. I enjoy having lots of time to myself, I have hobbies, an amazing spa membership and an extremely fortunate to have some really good friends whom I’m able to see nearly every week.

My SIL is lucky enough to not have to work due to DB’s income. She has nice things, goes out for lots of lunches.

I'm a SAHM who has teenage children and is fortunate to be married to a high earner so I haven't needed to work since having kids. We do have a lifestyle that most people would find impressive.

I choose not to work. DH works really long shifts and odd hours so can be out of the house either days or nights, with each week being different. When the kids are grown I'll go and get some post-sahm work. Maybe in a shop, factory, cafe or something similar.

The funniest post was Monday morning when she started by posting “it’s going to be a long week, hoping the nanny isn’t late” followed by “anyone know a place I can get nails done, not happy with the place I’ve been going as I think they overcharge and wanting a day to pamper myself a bit.”

I feel lucky that I don't need to work. I am not getting any benefits because dh earns enough.

I'm lucky in that I didn't have to carry on working.

I am lucky enough not to work and stay at home with my son, as DH is a high earner. I feel extremely grateful for this every day, and try very hard not to take it for granted.

Why did you post all those comments, MrsTroutfire?

@outnumberedbycats

Why did you post all those comments, MrsTroutfire?

As a counterpoint to all the posters saying "if he was a woman..."

The large proportion of spouses who live a life of relative leisure facilitated by a hard working partner are female. You'll never find a single thread online with as many men posting similar comments as in the one above. It's the sexual inequality people don't want to admit (which is why so many try and paint the working husband as privileged, which is a stretch when you read the above comments).

However, I do agree that giving up one's job to be a SAHM has certain risks. These are somewhat balanced by the fact that many women have a relatively easier life compared to their husbands who work 80 hours a week in stressful jobs. I think it should be more socially acceptable for men to take the gamble of going part time (at their own risk!), but many comments seem to show that attitudes change when the sexes are reversed.

And of course there's also the fact that becoming a SAHD hugely increases your statistical chance of being divorced by your wife.

Absolutely. What is he getting up to when your dc at school? Can he not spare some time to do some chores? I'm a stay at home parent, I'm not saying for one minute should clean all day long or anything. Being a SAHP is hard doing the same thing day in day out but surely he can keep on top of basic household jobs?

I have two with additional needs and I'm a SAHM as above. Even being at home all day keeping on top of stuff can be hard so I don't think you should expect everything to be done but the very least he should do something.

Oh I see, MrsTroutfire. Well, to be honest, life goes in phases and it’s never really that simple. Some DHs will work 80 hour weeks because they are essentially workaholics and if you have ever been married to one, you will know that you can’t deconstruct whatever drives them to be that way, Good luck with that, is all I can say. My DH was / is a bit like this. So whether I was SAHM by necessity or choice, I couldn’t tell you. Probably both. We have 4 DC so it was very hectic for me for many years, but as soon as they were all in school, I did have more time and I always had a cleaner as well. So yes, my life got easier as I didn’t need to return to work and, if I was the type to swan about getting my nails done, I could have. But generally I’m doing family-related stuff in the day, even now they’re teens. I do have time to exercise and take stock though. It took me years to remember how to prioritise myself, but I love the freedom now. Also, DH doesn’t need to work as much as he does these days, so that’s his choice and he certainly has a lot more trips away for hobbies and all manner of things than I do because that’s the way he is, whereas I don’t need to be doing all that. So we’re different, but it all balances out and neither feels hard done by and it’s never been a “woe is me” competition.

Some DHs will work 80 hour weeks because they are essentially workaholics and if you have ever been married to one, you will know that you can’t deconstruct whatever drives them to be that way,

I love certainly encountered many of those types of men - used to work in a largish law firm. However, I think you can often attempt to deconstruct them. A large part of it is male hierarchy which is likely innate to some degree, but manifests in different manners.

Many men have been brought up to believe that they have to provide and that to fail to do so makes them a failure. They want to 'walk in their father's footsteps' and make him proud. It's not just men that feel this way. Study after study has shown that women place more emphasis on 'status' when choosing a partner.

@MrsTroutfire those quotes are cherrypicked. Of course there are going to be the 'Ladies Who Lunch' types but they don't represent all the various different reasons or socioeconomic backgrounds of women who stay at home. Just like some people walk into high earning jobs because of their privileged backgrounds or circumstances and manage to coast into a life of status and high earning doesn't represent ALL people with jobs. I was also impressed that even amongst those quotes selected to (I guess) show SAHMs in a negative light how many of them mention volunteering. Imagine if all the economically inactive people who volunteer just stopped doing all that work for free overnight. Worth is more than what's on your paycheck.

Yes, all household chores should fall to the stay at home parent. They don't work so have lots of spare time, you bring home the money by not having so much time.

I think if you had a cleaner before and that worked for you, get one again. I can't see the massive Covid risk of someone cleaning your house if you stay out of their way. In the nicest possible way, I have noticed that those who have WFH throughout have become quite nervous of quite normal things.

I did my own cleaning during lockdown the first time round and all I learnt from that was I needed to change cleaning service (lots of neglected corners) and that it really does take a lot of time to do well -- time that could be spent earning money or doing kid stuff!

@MrsTroutfire those quotes are cherrypicked. Of course there are going to be the 'Ladies Who Lunch' types but they don't represent all the various different reasons or socioeconomic backgrounds of women who stay at home.

You're right. They were cherry picked and there were also plenty of women saying they wished they were able to work.

However, as I said earlier, you absolutely won't find a thread anywhere with a similar number of 'Lads that Lunch' talking about how their wife works 80 hour weeks whilst they enjoy their hobbies. I say this with confidence without having even looked.

The point is that a fair number of women have the choice whilst men almost never do. Neither sex generally seems to respect a man who doesn't 'fulfil his potential'.

Yes, all household chores should fall to the stay at home parent. They don't work so have lots of spare time, you bring home the money by not having so much time. sahp DO work they just aren’t paid for it. Many SAHP don’t have “lots of spare time” it’s just their busy time is not the same as someone who is employed. Why on earth would an employed parent expect to live as though they were in some sort of bespoke hotel??? Most adults manage to “keep house” and be employed, why would that stop because you have children?

@5zeds Why on earth would an employed parent expect to live as though they were in some sort of bespoke hotel??? Most adults manage to “keep house” and be employed, why would that stop because you have children?

You have just articulated exactly what I have been trying to find a way to express for years. Thanks.

Most adults manage to “keep house” and be employed, why would that stop because you have children?

Yes, that's true, most adults manage to keep house and be employed, so why would that stop because you have children?

The default is for both parents to earn a living and share housework/childcare between them. However, some families choose to split the work in a different way, with one taking on more responsibility for earning and the other taking on more responsibility for the domestic sphere. If they depart from the default of sharing everything equally, each couple will need to negotiate a fair split of the work. For many people, that means the SAHP taking on the bulk of the housework, especially if the kids are in school. If you choose to split it differently because of your particular circumstances, that's your call. There is no absolute right or wrong in this, it's about what works for each couple.

We could just as easily ask the question as to why an adult with children in school would expect to be financially supported by a partner. This can only work if both partners agree to that arrangement. The same applies to housework.

@UserAtRandom

Can you afford a cleaner?

If this was a SAHM posting that she hated cleaning and they could easily afford a cleaner, everyone would be telling her to go for it, life was too short, if her husband didn't like it he could do the cleaning himself ...

No they wouldn't.

@Dddccc

All of you set on this 6 hours a day by the time you do school run and get home depending on how far kids schools are he might be home for 5 hours a day in that time he does bits of housework, then collects kids and looks after them again if he is lucky he might get an hour to sit at lunch time

I've been a sahm doing almost 100% of the day to day housework and cooking. In all honesty I had plenty of leisure time and certainly far more than my husband did. I could see friends during the day and still get everything done in the week, so that weekends were free to enjoy.

Being a sahp isnt particularly hard or stressful, it's just a bit boring and soul destroying sometimes.

I don't recognise MrsTroutfires sahm lifestyle though. We took a serious financial hit to allow me (the much lower wage earner) to be at home. Meeting friends was usually a coffee morning, no beauty treatments EVER happened and holidays were in the UK, camping or self catering. Same was true for all my friends.

I worked pt.
Home by 13.30. Mondays off.
More than enough time to cook, clean and meet with friends.
I loved it.
Fortunately dh loves gardening so I never had to do that.
Retired now. Lots to do but no motivation.

I don't recognise Mrs Troutfire's sahm lifestyle though.

I work nearly 60 hours most weeks. Never less than 50.

You only have to look at the post above yours to see what I mean though (admittedly to a lesser extent as that poster is still doing all the housework). Having leisure time during weekdays and being able to see friends Mon-Fri and still have the weekend free is a luxury most men working long hours don't get to enjoy.

@UserAtRandom

No adult in a partnership with kids should also have 20-30 extra leisure hours per week either.

But that is the norm for any family where there is a SAHP and the DC are at school. I know very many SAHMs in that situation where they have a cleaner as they see their role as "looking after the children" and don't see why they should have to do all the cleaning.

TBH this boils down to:
Does the family have enough money for a cleaner without having to cut back on other things? If they do, they should get one.
If they don't then DH needs to agree to a minimum level of cleaning each day, as the person with more leisure time. Or the family needs to rethink the SAHP arrangement.

It's not the norm for us - I spend the school hours tidying, cleaning, food shopping, doing meal prep, washing, ironing, etc etc. Everything I can to ensure than our evenings and weekends run smoothly. I definitely don't have 20-30 hours of leisure time! I'm currently just having a quick coffee but have already stripped the beds and put the clean bedding on, unloaded the dishwasher and walked DC over a mile to school.

IMO YABU. I don't work and kids have all left home so I have all the time in the world to clean but I hate doing it. I also love a clean house so I have a cleaner. DH still works but even if he wasn't working he wouldn't clean because like the OPs DH, he isn't that fussed one way or the other. I'd be very pissed off if DH said he didn't want his money spent that way. I'm happy to accept that as the non working partner the housework is my responsibility but how it gets done is my decision.

Obviously if we couldn't afford a cleaner it would be a different story. That doesn't seem to be the case with the OP. Her reason for not wanting one is CoVid risk not cash. I think with three children at school and herself working outside the home that's a bit silly.

Surely people employ a cleaner because they want to do other things with their time?