To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

@woodhill: Absolutely, it really irks me when some are economic and do get access to social housing however much the elite pretend this isn't true

Immigrants and refugees *don't get access to social housing. Your BNP/UKIP relative may have told you they do. They don't.

The Elite? You mean those who know the facts, as opposed to your DailyFail bollocks.

@mackerella Also, he's not a fucking milkman: he's a partner in his family's dairy and is probably more wealthy than Nik Johnson! It was a toss-up whether Labour or LD would win the mayoral election here - but either way, it was due to voters putting one of them first and the other as second choice because they wanted to get rid of JP!

Also a result of those people who actually believed one of them was a milkman.... that's the level of ignorance prevailing here.

Divide and conquer is labour's policy. Labour supporters are so full of hatred and blinded by it they can't even see straight.

[quote MmeLaraque]**@woodhill: Absolutely, it really irks me when some are economic and do get access to social housing however much the elite pretend this isn't true

Immigrants and refugees *don't get access to social housing. Your BNP/UKIP relative may have told you they do. They don't.

The Elite? You mean those who know the facts, as opposed to your DailyFail bollocks.[/quote]
No I know from what I observe in my local area.

What's the BNP got to do with it anyway

"And perhaps the party wouldn’t be in the mess it is now if hundreds of thousands of youngsters hadn’t joined up to vote for Corbyn."

Quite a few Conservatives claimed to have joined up to do the same. One of our local councillors was chortling over it at the time.

A pity they didn't think of the effect on democracy back then.

They should have been disciplined in any party of honour, of course - would have been if they'd been in Labour.

[quote MmeLaraque]**@mackerella* Also, he's not a fucking milkman: he's a partner in his family's dairy and is probably more wealthy than Nik Johnson! It was a toss-up whether Labour or LD would win the mayoral election here - but either way, it was due to voters putting one of them first and the other as second choice because they wanted to get rid of JP!*

Also a result of those people who actually believed one of them was a milkman.... that's the level of ignorance prevailing here.[/quote]
To be fair, that’s how he describes himself. Or should I say he identifies as a milkman. That’s not ignorance, it’s being wilfully misled.

@blueangel19 what's your opinion on austerity ? You do realise that public services have been consistently underfunded, deliberately so, by billions of pounds. The 'diaspora of the world' hasn't descended on the world either. Look how many immigrants Germany has taken on ?

“They should have been disciplined in any party of honour, of course - would have been if they'd been in Labour.”

“As anti-Semitism was disciplined in the Labour Party ....... “

Undeuxdrei and a lot of Germans were not pleased by Mutti's rash invitation. And even less happy now that they have been in Germany for two years.

@XingMing we had many many less immigrants than germany, that's my point. Areas of the UK with a tiny influx of foreign workers voted to leave because of freedom of movement. The strains on public services were because local councils had endured such swingeing cuts and investment was low, not because of excessive immigration.

[quote Undeuxdrei]@XingMing we had many many less immigrants than germany, that's my point. Areas of the UK with a tiny influx of foreign workers voted to leave because of freedom of movement. The strains on public services were because local councils had endured such swingeing cuts and investment was low, not because of excessive immigration.[/quote]
This is like the emperor’s new clothes. Both clearly have impact and to pretend otherwise is silly.
My younger son started school in 2011. There were mass shortages of school places in the city I live in. Schools were being encouraged to add extra classes ( most in temporary units). September came and still some children did not have places.
This denial of basic logic doesn’t help anyone. Similar with social housing issues.
One side say it’s all cuts. The other side say it all immigration. Saying either over and over won’t make it true.

I don't think I said more than that many Germans were not keen on the volume of immigrants Angela Merkel invited, or that they thought the new immigrants were integrating well. I was referring more specifically to the new year's eve celebrations when several young girls were assaulted by immigrant males who felt it their right, as men, to rape women without chaperones.

Because they have got to be whores... or why would they not be at home studying their sacred texts?

The simple fact is that Labour need about 3 million English voters who currently vote for other parties (there is next to no chance of getting this number of votes from Scotland, N.I. and Wales). Most of these 3 million are currently voting Conservative.

However unpalatable they may find it, do the extreme left inside Labour not realise that to get these votes they need to come up with a leader and policies that appeal to these Tory voters.

The Labour party doesn't need to move to the right so much as expand to the right becoming more like a social democratic party, and to drop some sacred cows of the extreme left. This is what they did in the late nineties, for example by abandoning the original Clause IV of their constitution. This led directly to a landslide in the 97 election and a massive 418 seats in parliament.

Too many idiots on the left don't seem to grasp the simple truth that Labour needs to attract Tory voters, so it will be many years before the next Labour government.

@jcyclops

The simple fact is that Labour need about 3 million English voters who currently vote for other parties (there is next to no chance of getting this number of votes from Scotland, N.I. and Wales). Most of these 3 million are currently voting Conservative.

However unpalatable they may find it, do the extreme left inside Labour not realise that to get these votes they need to come up with a leader and policies that appeal to these Tory voters.

The Labour party doesn't need to move to the right so much as expand to the right becoming more like a social democratic party, and to drop some sacred cows of the extreme left. This is what they did in the late nineties, for example by abandoning the original Clause IV of their constitution. This led directly to a landslide in the 97 election and a massive 418 seats in parliament.

Too many idiots on the left don't seem to grasp the simple truth that Labour needs to attract Tory voters, so it will be many years before the next Labour government.

Labour could easily get the votes of the 3 million self employed excluded from the covid support schemes if they properly challenged the government on the illogical inequalities/unfairness of the schemes' criteria. Starmer & Dodds made a few half hearted challenges in PMQs but weren't confident in the facts/detail so were easily beaten by Boris/Rishi. Hopefully now Dodds has been replaced, the new Shadow Chancellor may research the fiasco properly and allow Labour to properly challenge on that subject.

@jcyclops

The simple fact is that Labour need about 3 million English voters who currently vote for other parties (there is next to no chance of getting this number of votes from Scotland, N.I. and Wales). Most of these 3 million are currently voting Conservative.

However unpalatable they may find it, do the extreme left inside Labour not realise that to get these votes they need to come up with a leader and policies that appeal to these Tory voters.

The Labour party doesn't need to move to the right so much as expand to the right becoming more like a social democratic party, and to drop some sacred cows of the extreme left. This is what they did in the late nineties, for example by abandoning the original Clause IV of their constitution. This led directly to a landslide in the 97 election and a massive 418 seats in parliament.

Too many idiots on the left don't seem to grasp the simple truth that Labour needs to attract Tory voters, so it will be many years before the next Labour government.

In the last general election:

1. More people didn't vote at all than voted for the Conservatives. 30-35% of possible votes are still up for grabs.

1. More people voted for left-aligned parties than right-aligned parties. A left government is not only possible, it's preferred.

1. A large number of the vital seat gains by the Tories were won by small margins, which means that if the Brexit party hadn't stood down it's candidates in Tory targetted areas, the Tories would have lost. It also means that had Lab/Libs (and maybe Greens) made the same deal, as was offered, that alliance of left parties would have won the election.

The left's main issue isn't policy or reputation or even who the leader is. The main issue is that the left vote is split between several parties whereas the right is united behind one.

Only the left can agree to stop squabbling among themselves... which was what (the universally derided)Tony Blair managed to achieve.

Areas of the UK with a tiny influx of foreign workers voted to leave because of freedom of movement.

How do you know it was because of freedom of movement?

My impression that it was much more to do with globalisation, the destruction of their communities and their wish to give the establishment a bloody nose. The fact that Brexit won't solve their problems is neither here nor there, I'm just questioning this assertion that the reason was freedom of movement.

MadameL you are hilarious. Private Eye's cartoon was written for you.

You've made it so clear that talking about women's rights is in your view transphobic. If you think any sane woman should vote for a party that will make her guilty of a hate crime to stand up for women's rights, you need to reflect honestly on why you have such sympathy for misogyny.

**Labour could easily get the votes of the 3 million self employed excluded from the covid support schemes if they properly challenged the government on the illogical inequalities/unfairness of the schemes' criteria. Starmer & Dodds made a few half hearted challenges in PMQs but weren't confident in the facts/detail so were easily beaten by Boris/Rishi. Hopefully now Dodds has been replaced, the new Shadow Chancellor may research the fiasco properly and allow Labour to properly challenge on that subject.

As one of the 3 million I would never consider Labour. The opposition I wanted was opposition to shutting down the economy. Labour would have left us with an even bigger deficit which is definitely not something I would vote for.

So the talk is if Labour lose Batley and Spen by election then Starmer is gone.

@bp300 who would replace him?

[quote Smurfsarethefuture]@bp300 who would replace him?[/quote]
Maybe Burnham but not sure he'd want the job.

@bp300

agree

[quote Onetoomuch]@Shehasadiamondinthesky love to know who that was. Is it on youtube ?[/quote]
I heard it on the radio when I was driving to work one morning.