To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

Exactly this. The irony of talking about Labour splurges after the drunken sailor spending spree of the last year.

It's been a pandemic. Endless furlough has been expensive. What would Labour have done differently or better?

"It's been a pandemic. Endless furlough has been expensive. What would Labour have done differently or better?"

Not given loads of contracts to their mates.

So who would Labour have given them to? And how do we know they would have been any cheaper?

Labour also needs to stop scattergunning and trying to appeal to all and sundry. Politics has changed and Labour no longer has a dependable Tory party to attack. The Tories under Johnson are not the traditional low tax, low spend party (although I'm not sure that was ever the case in reality anyway). This Tory party is willing to poach policies across the political spectrum and ride a wave of populism. Labour's more successful experience in Wales is borne out of competent leadership. Labour needs to concentrate on making sure that its MPs are competent and have a good record in representing their constituencies - that's what will get people voting for them. Forget all the faux flag waving too. No-one is going to buy the attempt at patriotism. Encourage pride in people's communities by all means but the attempt to embrace patriotism is for me, cringy.

@HarrietPierce

"It's been a pandemic. Endless furlough has been expensive. What would Labour have done differently or better?"

Not given loads of contracts to their mates.

This. And if it had been Labour the opposition accusations of “spaffing” would have been endless.

I am well over 45 as are most of my friends, and I can assure you that we don't all vote Tory. It maybe of course, that since I find the views of the current Tory party abhorrent, I would find the views of those who support them not the sort of people I would get on with.

@XingMing

And my DS, nearly 22, voted for Brexit. One vote cancelled another. But before you write us off as racist thugs, DS is a woke art student at a university. You don't have to think racist thuggish thoughts to understand that uncontrolled migration of single men from eastern Europe reduced the minimum wage to the going rate for the job. In an area without many economic migrants, I can tell you that the going rate for a cleaner is £12.50. It's £15.00 an hour for gardening. And if you want a competent joiner or builder, you can expect to pay £160 - £180 per day. In Cornwall.

One vote did not cancel another. Each vote counted. Your post is a prime example of the political illiteracy that created Brexit, and continues to make such a mess of the UK.

Immigration was never uncontrolled. The UK has always retained the right to repatriate any EU person after 3 months if they didn't have enough funds to supports themselves. The UK govt chose not to. Then they blamed the EU, insisted the UK needed to "Take back control" (of *what, precisely?). People fell for that, despite millions continuing to queue at passport control to gain entry to and from the UK.

If you mean the fact that the UK takes in refugeees, that's obligatory under international law. Despite the Tories are happy to break International Law when is suits them, this is not a good thing. Breaking International Laws makes a country look as untrustworthy as it sounds. Having an electorate who continue to vote for the party whose members break International Laws really speaks volumes to every other country: the majority of Brits are voting for this.... that's what they want. This is why the 48% (those who did not vote for Brexit, and everyone who doesn't vote Tory) continue to make themselves know. We/they do *not support this shit show, and want no part of it. Being dragged down because millions of other people's ignorance is horrendous.

The UK Tories also encouraged the zero hour contract, so that people could be technically employed, but still not earn a penny, and not know where their next meal was coming from/how to pay their bills. That level of instability and insecurity helped to create a nasty environment, and the Tories went further by demonising anyone who couldn't feed themselves/their kids, calling them scroungers. People fell for that, and continue to fall for that. It's staggering political ignorance.

It's always interesting when people claim that other people (who generally have English as a second or extra language) "Stole our jobs." No, they didn't. No one stole anyone's job.

If a person whose native language isn't that of the country they're working in gets a job ahead of the native speaker, the native speaker needs to look at their skillset. I'm only 50, and remember the jokes about British Building contractors always being on tea breaks. Perhaps the reason why those Eastern Europeans get the jobs is because they do the work. Or actually bother to turn up.

I read a few local town pages, and the number of complaints about traders who don't even bother to to supply a quote/turn up to offer a quote is staggering. The general consensus is that they don't need the work in the first place.

@Peregrina

I am well over 45 as are most of my friends, and I can assure you that we don't all vote Tory. It maybe of course, that since I find the views of the current Tory party abhorrent, I would find the views of those who support them not the sort of people I would get on with.

This. None of us (we and our friends) have ever supported the Tories, and no one would vote for them. We remember the jubilation when they were finally voted out previously. The staggering ignorance and selfishness of people continuing to support the Tories is disappointing for a first world country.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains

"At no point did they ever acknowledge the very real issue that many people had seen their wages driven down by immigration and that it was no longer possible to support a family on the salary they were now able to command." This is absolutely some of it and I think we (Labour, although I was far too young to vote) completely messed up on it in the early 2000s.

It's not immigration that drove wages down. That has been government policy. Zero hours contracts created instability and insecurity, so that people who did have a job were grateful for it. The same Tory policies have persuaded millions to consider anyone who didn't have enough to feed their families/pay the bills (usually as a direct result of Tory policy/universal credit failure) as a workshy scrounger.

The Tories are good at sound bites. Some people like those soundbites, without even thinking about them. Cameron's party political broadcasts were all about "people who want to work hard and get on". There was nothing about supporting the vulnerable and the disabled, because the Tories don't care about those people. I noticed when the Job Centre changed its slogan to "Make work Pay", and it seemed so eerily close to the old "Arbeit Macht Frei" slogan ("Work makes you Free"). That people can't see/don't care what's been happening in the UK is a shocking reflection of the education system here.

It's not immigration that drove wages down

It was definitely a factor. My son worked as a plumber in the building trade in London for a decade until 2019. There were times when he was the only native English speaker on the site. Most of the Eastern European guys he worked with were happy to work for low rates because they lived cheaply and sent most of their money home to their families (where it was worth much more). None of them intended to stay here long no term.

@ScreamingBeans

Labour has never once confronted this issue. Labour supporters still believe that the EU referendum was lost due to pure racism. The MPs never got beyond saying that everyone needed to have a Conversation about the issues. (I'm not sure what they mean by that - sometimes I think Labour's version of a Conversation is educating the people they see as poor, illiterate commentators out of Wrongthink so they see the error of their ways. It never seems to involve addressing the problems of the people.)

Spot on. No one should underestimate the visceral resentment of being denigrated as lazy fuckers who won't get off their arses to do McJobs which won't pay mortgages, by people crowing about how much cheaper it is to hire a plumber or builder now, while boasting about how much nicer and more progressive they are than the racists who want you to pay them a decent rate for fixing your loo.

As for me, as long as Labour fail to recognise what a woman is, and continue to sign pledges branding women's rights organisations as hate groups, I will (very, very reluctantly) vote Tory. Can't say I blame you. I don't want to join you, but on this issue, I would go over to the dark side.

1. I've never yet seen/heard a Brexit supporter provide a reason for voting that way that *didn't boil down to racism and/or xenophobia.

"Addressing the problems of the people". Which people? The ones who voted for Brexit? All that bollocks about "It's wat the people voted for": wrong. It's what fractionally over half those who voted for voted for. I remember Farage saying that if the vote turned as close as that, things would not be over. Funny how he was crowing about it the instant that tiny percentage was enough for *him, isn't it. During a referendum, the vote usually has to be a 66% majority to be upheld. That one just wasn't. An illegal referendum to decide the future of millions of people. Held by a political party who have no problem breaking International Laws when they see fit. Says it all, really.

1. The Tories are the ones telling everyone that welfare recipients are lazy scroungers. Don't want them doing that? Don't vote for them. Their job centre slogan is "Making work Pay"..... which is eerily close to the Arbeit Macht Frei. They know that, of course They signed it off.

1. More transphobia? The levels of aggression and ire against trans people on MN is appalling.

There are some very nasty echoes of the 1930s in this thread. Very nasty.

So @MmeLaraque, now that you have insulted everyone who took exception to you, what do you think of Michel Barnier's opening salvo in his as-yet-unannounced Presidential candidacy that if elected he would stop all non-EU migration into France?

I'm not quite politically illiterate really. I gained quite a decent degree in P&G in the 1970s.

I’m probably as remainer as they come but I really let that skewed view go @MmeLaraque.

During a referendum, the vote usually has to be a 66% majority to be upheld. That one just wasn't. An illegal referendum to decide the future of millions of people

While undoubtedly the terms of the referendum were less than ideal - not least because of Cameron’s stupidity and complacency - it was a legal referendum. Legality and morality are different things.

Women wanting to retain their own spaces is not transphobia. I have great respect for trans women who want simply to live their lives. That isn’t what objecting to self id is about.

But then you know this because you’re being quite intentionally provocative, as well as illustrating perfectly why a Labour government will be aspirational for some time.

3. More transphobia? The levels of aggression and ire against trans people on MN is appalling.

This is what the poster said:

As for me, as long as Labour fail to recognise what a woman is, and continue to sign pledges branding women's rights organisations as hate groups

How is that "transphobia"? It's not transphobic to want Labour politicians to stop slandering feminist campaigns.

I've never yet seen/heard a Brexit supporter provide a reason for voting that way that didn't boil down to racism and/or xenophobia*

Then you'v clearly not been listening (that old Labour problem identified by so many on here)
Countless very articulate posters have explained their reasons for voting Leave - reasons which involved neither - but there's simply no point any more
Not when the usual response is to go right on howling "racism/xenophobia" in the hope something sticks

One thing is thinking that we have a moral duty with asylum seekers/ refugees but another is denying the burden on the NHS, schools and services as a result of large numbers coming in. What I find of current Labour core supporters is that they expect the UK to take care of all the world diasporas and expect everybody to be ok with this. Whoever do not agree with them are racist assholes, blah.blah.blah.

Then on top of that they carry on are complaining of house shortages, inequalities, schools being full and the NHS being broken and blaming people who vote the TORIES in. Without thinking for a minute that we want something back for the taxes we paid.

My son worked as a plumber in the building trade in London for a decade until 2019.

I am not sure how immigration in London has an effect on Hartlepool, which has very little immigration.

But most immigrants go to cities. This is where the pressure is likely to be on hospitals and other facilities. A number of these cities have just returned Labour mayors.

Hartlepool may well have just lost its A & E, but it wasn't because they were overwhelmed with immigrants because there aren't many there.

But most immigrants go to cities. This is where the pressure is likely to be on hospitals and other facilities. A number of these cities have just returned Labour mayors.

Hartlepool may well have just lost its A & E, but it wasn't because they were overwhelmed with immigrants because there aren't many there.

Sorry, I have no idea why that went and posted twice.

Sorry, I have no idea why that went and posted twice.

@blueangel19

One thing is thinking that we have a moral duty with asylum seekers/ refugees but another is denying the burden on the NHS, schools and services as a result of large numbers coming in. What I find of current Labour core supporters is that they expect the UK to take care of all the world diasporas and expect everybody to be ok with this. Whoever do not agree with them are racist assholes, blah.blah.blah.

Then on top of that they carry on are complaining of house shortages, inequalities, schools being full and the NHS being broken and blaming people who vote the TORIES in. Without thinking for a minute that we want something back for the taxes we paid.

Absolutely, it really irks me when some are economic and do get access to social housing however much the elite pretend this isn't true

@Peregrina

My son worked as a plumber in the building trade in London for a decade until 2019.

I am not sure how immigration in London has an effect on Hartlepool, which has very little immigration.

Did I mention Hartlepool? The point I responded to was about the general impact of immigration on wages.

@Peregrina

But most immigrants go to cities. This is where the pressure is likely to be on hospitals and other facilities. A number of these cities have just returned Labour mayors.

Hartlepool may well have just lost its A & E, but it wasn't because they were overwhelmed with immigrants because there aren't many there.

No they don't. I live in a run down Northern seaside town. I can guarantee that if I ring up 3 tradesmen to come for a quote, one of them will be Eastern European, if not 2. It's not recent either. About 10 years ago, we had our house exterior painted - the guy who came to quote was local. On the day they started, a van of a handful of Eastern Europeans came - the guy who quoted didn't appear again. It was a crap job too with crap quality paint - we had to have it all done again a couple of years later.

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

Cambridgeshire resident here - Labour were completely unprepared to win the mayors race. I doubt anyone here could name a Labour policy but it’s seen as the “right” thing to do among the well educated Cambridgeshire IT/higher tech workforces. It was a good example of how PR works but I remain to be convinced that the mayoral candidate has the experience to do a good job. Interestingly, the Conservative candidate was a milkman, the Labour candidate a consultant paediatrician…

Politics here is increasingly tribal in the manner of pits and mining towns. No one at my work would dare to admit to voting Conservative!

I'm also a resident and this isn't true. Cambridgeshire is a county in two halves: South Cambs, Cambridge City and the bits of East Cambs around Ely are Labour (Cam city) or Lib Dem (the other bits). Everything north or west if there is solidly Tory - the kind of places where the Conservative candidate gets 65-70% of the vote. Centre/left support goes well beyond the universities and the science parks: I wouldn't be surprised if South Cambs (which was Heidi Allen's seat) goes Lib Dem at the next election, and even Lucy Frazer's seat could go yellow if things continue in the same direction.

Nik Palmer's victory in the mayoral election was largely due to the huge unpopularity of James Palmer (previous Tory mayor, usually seen scowling from the pages of the local paper). In particular, many of his transport policies (duelling the A10 north of Cambridge, the massive white elephant that's the Cambridge Autonomous Metro) are seen as divisive and profligate. Also, he's not a fucking milkman: he's a partner in his family's dairy and is probably more wealthy than Nik Johnson! It was a toss-up whether Labour or LD would win the mayoral election here - but either way, it was due to voters putting one of them first and the other as second choice because they wanted to get rid of JP!