To want to shout F off to men perving over my teenage daughter

[Tuesdaysintheazores]

Literally on a walk to the shops, the amount who openly stare and gawp, I'm talking men in their 30s ish and older not teenagers. Gives me the rage

Maybe part of it is being supportive of how we as women do reclaim our sexuality and our space sometimes. As well as teaching our sons (we are very influential as mother’s).

I know when I was younger I got leered at constantly, all the time, and it was worse when I dressed how I wanted.

However I chose really great female and male friends who were all really respectful and not sexist. I chose to travel by myself as a teenager and later abroad by myself. I made myself very aware of danger and how to avoid it from men (if possible). It’s only reading threads like this that I think to my younger self ‘go girl’! And very quite proud.

I still had a few very scary incidents of being attacked, no matter how ‘safe’ I tried to be.

I also loved dancing in clubs and would go on the dance floor by myself from a young age. It’s actually easier to avoid leering by being very obviously.

History shows that we as women have had to fight - quite literally - for our rights. The first few days women were allowed to attend Cambridge university the male under grads fucking rioted 🙄🙄. That’s why being nice and appeasing simply doesn’t work. Why would the dominant group change? Suits them.

@UKsounding

"Makes my blood boil. And yes, it isn't the odd creep - it's totally normal."

But it isn't normal outside the UK. If someone did it to my DD, I don't think that another adult would necessarily say something to the perv but they would physically move to stand between the man and my DD I think. I know that in other situations when she was younger e.g. aggressive begging on the subway, adults have spoken up and told my DD to come and stand/sit with them. Canadians don't like it when other people are impolite.

Maybe in the UK everyone needs to be prepared to insert themselves into these situations for the girls sake and not just passively watch it happen.

Sadly not my experience, in Italy on a school trip my friends and I had to take refuge in a shop due to being hounded by a group of men in heat. The shopkeeper had to literally chase them away. And on the same trip, men were pounding on our hotel room doors trying to get us to let them in for a 'party'. It was so scary

@LimitIsUp

Howtobring

Right back at you

I am not suggesting that young women and girls are in any way to blame for men leering at them, or that they should be obliged to cover up in order to go under the radar. I was just reflecting that perhaps this is why my dd is going out in baggy formless sweatshirts and hoodies - a departure from before. She has complained about men gawking.

I am making no value judgement or advocating this as a solution for girls and women, I think it's a crying shame as it happens. So back of and wind your neck in

I wore (and still do usually) baggy tops as a teenager because of all the male attention focused on my boobs. Lewd comments from adult men to an obviously shy 12/13 year old. They would laugh at me if I became uncomfortable. I did start scowling or telling them to f off when I got older but it was a rude awakening to the shittiness of some men.

I think the hardest thing to compute really is, start a thread like this and you will get the NAMALT people.

However the survey recently released showed a staggeringly high percentage of women and girls have been sexually harassed.

So either millions.of women and grols manage ro regularly come across this very small handful of men who must somehow have spent years of their life travelling across the country daily or more men are like this than the wives, girl friends ,.sisters, mothers, grandmothers and daughters would like to admit.

Women and girls

Men are disgusting pervs they should not be openly leering at any of us no matter what our age! But I will admit that girls look so much older than they are these days, it's only when talking to them you can tell their age. My step daughter is 16 and she has been able to pass for 18/19 for a good few years.

It is not about the clothes, not at all. It is about men not using their faculties to behave in a decent way. It is as if they are infantilising themselves, but being very threatening in the process.

But a side point IS how very differently clothes are designed for boys and girls, and men and women. Wide necklines for women, tight trousers without pockets, dresses without pockets, the clutch handbag, high heels. It is cold and uncomfortable, and can even cause injury. Just why?
Because women are «on show» for men, maybe?

It is as if they are infantilising themselves, but being very threatening in the process.

It's not "infantilising" because it's not something that prepubescent boys do. Leering is mainly in the purview of middle-aged men (and I can think of a bunch of reasons for why that may be).

I don't think you will convince men not to stare at women they find attractive of their own accord. Leering would need to come under the umbrella of sexual harassment and be a genuine offence before it was reduced.

'But I will admit that girls look so much older than they are these days, it's only when talking to them you can tell their age'

This has been said forever though.
Men in particular seem unable to hazard whether a female person is likely to be a child or not, even when they're wearing school uniform.

When I was a girl in the 80s it was the same. Girls clothes are to enticing. They look older then they are. What's the harm in looking. Learn how to deal with it.

Like I say I was 12/ 13 when it started. In the early 80s.

The idea that men think they are hassling / leering at over, what. 16? 18? Is still rubbish. Firstly because men aren't stupid. And secondly because they're often 30s/ 40s/ older and have no business leering at/ hassling girls that much younger even if they do honestly think they're 16/18. And thirdly men shouldn't be leering at/ hassling any women or girls anyway however old they are.

When men say over and over I thought she was older (sometimes/ often in court), and society accepts that girls look older these days. As they said in the 90s, 80s, and I'm sure in the 70s, 60s etc. Then I think that society really needs to understand that that's just what girls look like.

My daughter started puberty 8.5. periods before going into year 6. She's 11 now and 5'6 has a bust etc. She's 11.

The fact that there were a handful of girls at her school who were tall and had curves in year 6. No makeup. Primary school uniform. Hair in plaits etc. Men looked.

I think it comes back to something really deep down about girls and women. Girls are children. They look like children. As soon as they start getting a more womanly shape then society doesn't really see them as children any more.
Men see something shaped like a young woman and leer. They are not even slightly thinking past pretty/ boobs / bum. This is the problem.

Sorry been going on.

There was a thing earlier about women always feeling like victims etc which annoyed me. A child being openly looked up and down by a grown man, having sexual comments etc IS a victim. To suggest otherwise is awful.

And it doesn't need to be like this.

The incidence of Street harassment varies massively between countries.

A report said the UK was worse than other countries in Western Europe. I think this is true based on some of the countries I have been. Then you get Brazil, India etc where in some areas it's epidemic.

The men are the same the difference is what is seen as acceptable in society.

If there was the will it would change. If adults stepped in. Said something. Even if a few just stopped and glared. I've seen you. I think you're scum.

It can be done but it needs society to stop essentially seeing girls as too tempting once their breasts start growing, describing them as sexually knowing (happens a lot), and ignoring the things that go on, on the street.

Girls don’t look older. Pictures of my mum and aunt in the 60’s with heavy eyeliner and their bouffant hair and mini skirts they looked much older than most girls their age now

I may see a young man who happens to be good looking but somehow I manage not to stare or leer at him amazingly I can’t control myself

Age is irrelevant anyway.

It wouldn't be appropriate fir any age group

Well exactly.

The things about looking older/ dressing different/ behaving in certain ways (ignore/ bite back etc)... Are all implicitly saying that the men will do it and that's that, and the only thing to do is for individual girls from the age it starts (for plenty it's from primary school) need to learn how to avoid/ 'deal' with it.

That puts all the spotlight on the girls/ women and away from the men. It doesn't challenge their behaviour at all.

This happens across the board with sex offences tbh.

It needs to change.

I think it's really sad that you are afraid to march in case men see you as a hysterical woman. That is the patriarchy affecting your mind again. Stay down, be docile. Who cares what men think?
Now is the time for women to get together and stand up for themselves.

That's not what i said. I'm not afraid of what anyone thinks of me, least of all men. I was pointing out men will dismiss it as 'hysterical woman', rendering it pointless. Women are mostly in agreement that this behaviour is unacceptable, it's not other wonen you need to convince, its men.

I also advocated telling men to fuck off - hardly docile. You carry in with your airy fairy 'marching' that no man is going to take a blind bit of notice of though!

It needs to be shameful. Other men need to call it out too.
It worked with smoking and drink driving, I know it's not quite the same but when it becomes a bit embarrassing or shameful men might think before they do it.

I say that but when I look at what's on porn hub it's hardly surprising they treat women like walking dolls

I mean walking dolls to use

Honestly if it was me then I wouldn’t ask for maintenance that week anyway as that money can be spent on them during their holiday.

Totally agree with this.

I was in a line a of traffic yesterday and a teenage girl walked passed, she was young but I have no idea just how young because I’m not familiar with her. A can with 3 men in it facing the other way so I could see all their faces were gawping, oofting and doing all sorts of creepy ass shit. She was in a tracksuit, she just looked like a nice young girl I don’t get it?

Van*

I’m glad that, from reading some of the responses on this thread that girls are able to challenge this type of behaviour. When I was young we did, shamefully, used to get a kick out of the attention, which started at age 12 until about age 18.
Not excusing leering in any way, but it doesn’t seem that long ago that there would be club nights/parties where young adult men and women would go out dressed in a skimpy school uniform. Any the Britney Spears video. So it seems that school uniform has been seen as a sexual thing, which is rather creepy now I think about it.

I nearly got myself arrested/murdered after this happened once. We were walking back from the vet after DD1 had held her cat in her arms as he was put to sleep, stopped to cross the road and two men pulled up across the crossing to ask whether her red hair was natural in the most vulgar way.

They drove off, but were caught behind a car making a U turn just 30 foot away - I sprinted after them like a fucking Terminator, calling them all the types of cunt in the world with the cat basket in my hand and I had every intention of hauling the driver out of his window by the throat and battering him round the head with the cat basket.

She'd had similar since she was nine years old. NINE FUCKING YEARS OLD. At least I had started puberty when it first happened to me aged 11.

'I think it's really sad that you are afraid to march in case men see you as a hysterical woman. That is the patriarchy affecting your mind again. Stay down, be docile. Who cares what men think?
Now is the time for women to get together and stand up for themselves'

Yes this was the comment!

Women have been marching for years. Doesn't seem to do much.

Reclaim the night started 1977. It was a response to women being told to do xyz while the yourkshire ripper was active. It's gone on certainly a lot annually through my life, in various cities.

More recently, off the top of my head.

Women in Poland turned out in massive numbers to protest what was happening with abortion law. Thousands of women night after night.
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/29/third-night-of-protests-in-poland-after-abortion-ban-takes-effect

Mexico protests about femicide.
www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56321145

Etc etc.

The idea that women around the world meekly accept their place is wrong.

Women protest, march, lobby, everything. We don't get very far. That would be the patriarchy you mention.

The idea that women and girls go through shit everywhere because they're meek is just wrong.

I noticed disgusting men staring to leer at my DD when she was seven. Literally walking past gawping at her legs, hanging out of car windows etc. I actually ended up going home and sobbing to DH because it upset me so much. She was of course blissfully unaware and it just broke my heart - not even vaguely near puberty and this shit has already started. Makes me sick to the stomach

When she’s older and understands what’s happening I’ll shame the vile bastards loudly, but I can’t bring myself to draw her attention to it yet so have to settle for giving them my best death stare. If it ever happened in a safe enough public place (eg the supermarket) I’d probably get my phone out, take the pervert’s picture and loudly threaten to report him to the police (and then do so).

@DeadlyMedally

It is as if they are infantilising themselves, but being very threatening in the process.

It's not "infantilising" because it's not something that prepubescent boys do. Leering is mainly in the purview of middle-aged men (and I can think of a bunch of reasons for why that may be).

I don't think you will convince men not to stare at women they find attractive of their own accord. Leering would need to come under the umbrella of sexual harassment and be a genuine offence before it was reduced.

I am actually interested in your thoughts here Deadly. What are your theories as to why they do it? And I agree, it is mainly middle aged men.