To want to shout F off to men perving over my teenage daughter

[Tuesdaysintheazores]

Literally on a walk to the shops, the amount who openly stare and gawp, I'm talking men in their 30s ish and older not teenagers. Gives me the rage

On a holiday with my niece, I got so fed up with their behaviour that I walked up to a few and said 'She's 11, do you think you could put your tongue away'.

Some of them at least had the decency to look embarrassed.

I distinctly remember my mum getting angry and giving men obvious filthy looks when I was a preteen. The men were often with their wives or girlfriends. It gave me the confidence to stare out any man I caught leering - they'd look extremely embarrassed and always looked away. Only one time, I remember a woman berating her partner for staring at my friend and me when we were about 13. Did all the others not notice? Pretend not to notice? Say something at home?

I agree we shouldn't be putting up with this shit but I think marching is problematic in that it feeds nicely into the 'hysterical woman' narrative men have constructed and perpetuated for far too long. It has to be something they understand and are genuinely bothered by, and quite often, that's shame.

And sadly it happens the other way around also. My 18 year old son has worked in our restaurant since he was 16 and the number of times I've had to look daggers at groups of women openly flirting with him, ogling him and making suggestive remarks about taking him home, or asking if he does the whole 'waiter in the buff' service. Used to make me so mad, I wanted to shout 'he's still a kid' but as they were paying customers I had to zip it!

"Makes my blood boil. And yes, it isn't the odd creep - it's totally normal."

But it isn't normal outside the UK. If someone did it to my DD, I don't think that another adult would necessarily say something to the perv but they would physically move to stand between the man and my DD I think. I know that in other situations when she was younger e.g. aggressive begging on the subway, adults have spoken up and told my DD to come and stand/sit with them. Canadians don't like it when other people are impolite.

Maybe in the UK everyone needs to be prepared to insert themselves into these situations for the girls sake and not just passively watch it happen.

Dh got hassle as a teen waitering at the Conservative club🙄.

That said I think it is way worse for teen girls due to the power imbalance. Also street harassment is pretty much all directed at girls. Men seem to bond over it in a way women just... don’t. Dd2 is 12 but tall and objectively beautiful honestly the attention she gets from adult men is disgusting.

I wholeheartedly agree that women and girls should be able to dress as they please. A woman should be able to walk naked down the street without fear of rape/harassment.

However, I do wonder if the problem runs deeper than you might think. Why is the fashion for women generally to have tight/revealing clothing? Should there not be mainstream tight/revealing clothing for men if we are genuinely free to choose our clothes? If not, why not? Who is designing this clothing? Are we being subliminally ‘told’ that this is what we should wear and then thinking it’s our choice as women? Also, why don’t clothes for women have practical pockets etc like men’s clothes do?

I’ve just fallen down a bit of a rabbit hole here so am just thinking aloud. I’m probably being ridiculous.

It is actually. Anyone remember that young woman that wore a camera and walked around and recorded all the hassle she got?

@skirk64

How old is she? Big difference between men admiring a 19yo and them perving at a 13yo.

So it’s okay for men to leer at a 19yo woman going about her life?! What decade are you living in?

But it isn't normal outside the UK.

That's just not true. Certain countries outside the UK are known for worse than inappropriate looking!

There's a billboard advertising campaign where I live asking people to call it out.

The related stat is about the abuse girls experience while wearing school uniform.

Actually I think we are not dramatic enough. I want to go MENTAL when this happens to my 12 year old. Maybe henceforth we all should

Yanbu, it’s fucking disgraceful 😡

I've just found a photo of me as a young teenager (13ish) being leered at by my dad's friends. It's disgusting. Yuck. YADNBU.

Someone in their twenties is still young and beautiful (not saying they should be subject to catcalls or being approached, either but not so bad to just look at women that age) but teens, especially young teens, absolutely not.

My DDs have all suffered, 2 whilst they were at primary school

I work at a uni, the students look like children to me!!

The only remote eye candy is the local Footie team when it's training but only the older players and even most of them look too young and I guess some are in their 30s!

How can men not see teens as kids once they are at least 10 years older!! When we're talking young/mid teens by the time a bloke is 20 why can he not SEE they are too young???

Porn has so much to answer for and I think the internet is making the issue worse.

Genuine question (my DD is 11 and we are not there yet). What happens if you shout "paedophile" at these men?

@MiriamMargo

oh yea its such a big problem in this country isn't it !!!!! Oh some of you woman are so bloody dramatic,

Is this a joke?!

@MiriamMargo

oh yea its such a big problem in this country isn't it !!!!! Oh some of you woman are so bloody dramatic,

WTF?! Yes it is a big problem No women should not be fair game for men to leer at regardless of age I used to wonder who was raising these men. Clearly people like you.

oh yea its such a big problem in this country isn't it !!!!! Oh some of you woman are so bloody dramatic,

It is a big problem. When you have teenage daughters you see it happen a lot. I also worked in a girls school for many years and saw and heard about the schoolgirls in uniform getting harassed by pervy men frequently.
What a lovely world you live in where this doesn't happen - wish I lived in it.

@UKsounding

"Makes my blood boil. And yes, it isn't the odd creep - it's totally normal."

But it isn't normal outside the UK. If someone did it to my DD, I don't think that another adult would necessarily say something to the perv but they would physically move to stand between the man and my DD I think. I know that in other situations when she was younger e.g. aggressive begging on the subway, adults have spoken up and told my DD to come and stand/sit with them. Canadians don't like it when other people are impolite.

Maybe in the UK everyone needs to be prepared to insert themselves into these situations for the girls sake and not just passively watch it happen.

I'm not sure if that's true. I remember getting tons of harassment when abroad as a young woman.

@Yorkterrier I've been having a think about your question and I think there's a couple of reasons - the reason that 'trans issues' are quite prevalent on the FWR board at the minute is because there's several ongoing high profile court cases at the moment which tends to focus the direction of the conversation because there's a time element. Another reason occurs to me as a newcomer to the FWR boards is that a lot of regulars who have been on the boards for a long time have probably had the conversations about subjects you mention, many times, and just don't have the answers. It's a huge societal problem and not easily solved with discussions. The only way I can see issues like objectification or sex trafficking (for example) being tackled is by women's grassroots groups tackling the issue in schools (as a pp mentioned). Maybe MNHQ could tackle some sort of big project? I really don't know.

God France. On my French exchange I was a geeky 14 year old in no way dressed provocatively (think anorak) and in one weekend in at Malo my exchange partner and I got flashed at and he followed us. The next day a man was wanking next to us at a bus stop! At Malo - city of perves.

@Florelei I agree with you.
My daughter wanted vests with no lace or bows on and I ended up buying ‘boy’ vests as they are comfortable. They both need pj’s and the girls pjs are very short, showing off leg and bum so I ended up buying boy pjs for her.
Now I have a son and daughter, I see how girls clothes are itchy and uncomfortable or the shorts are tight and very short whereas the boys clothing is comfortable, loose and the shorts are longer in the leg.
I know mainly buy from the boy sections in shops for both of them.

oh yea its such a big problem in this country isn't it !!!!! Oh some of you woman are so bloody dramatic,

Do you care to expand? I think it is a problem and I'll expalin why.
1)It shows the entitlement of men who think they can just objectify not just women, but children. It's just a glimpse into how their minds work.
2) it makes girls feel like shit, shameful and/or embarassed about their bodies. The power inbalance means they learn to just 'accept it', which sets a precident for accepting shitty and disrespectful behavior from men.

That's just the tip of the iceberg really.

And it's just as disgusting when grown women so this to boys too.

Anyone who doesn't think this is a big problem is wilfully ignoring it, and questioning womens and girls lived experiences, and that's not cool.