to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

MT - Your argument appears to be that porn is wrong because money is involved. I fail to see why sex shouldn't be 'traded' in the same way that looks are in the modelling/fashion industries or that voices are in the music industry.

I dont buy it.

I dont fund it.

I have never bought porn.

elf, less about morality (which i don't think i fully understand) more about empathy

hope this doesn't sound harsh, that once one has realized the possibility that it all might be horrid (poss of drugs, poverty, pain, force) it's hard not to recoil, if one has empathy.

which isn;t to say that it's not very possible, often, to block out that part of one's brain - i've done it myself. and still think i'm an okay person.

SWC - why does it demean them anymore than a model selling her looks?

erm ,no Norma. Read my posts again. There are many complext psychological reasons why it is traumatic for most women to trade her body; the costs to her are also great socially, the cost to men is nil. It is too compex to get into here.

I have said before, women are empowered when advertising their beauty, but once public penetration takes place, her 'value' as a potencial mate to a high status partner plummits and her life choices become even more limited. You may not think that's fair, but that is the reality.

Alright, never said you did Elf - good for you!

There is something called 'dissonance theory' OBM that can help explain the rationalities people make about such things..and much worse. You can read about it in this book

IMO people watching porn (and I am not talking about porn-rape, knowingly watching women being forced etc) is not the big issue with the world.

There are far more terrible things that happen in this world that make me sad.

Somebody watching the odd bit of porn (and obv if people cannot function sexually without it, yes, it is a big problem, but we are not talking about that) really goes under my radar and does not make anybody less moral.

"erm ,no Norma. Read my posts again. There are many complext psychological reasons why it is traumatic for most women to trade her body; the costs to her are also great socially, the cost to men is nil. It is too compex to get into here.

I have said before, women are empowered when advertising their beauty, but once public penetration takes place, her 'value' as a potencial mate to a high status partner plummits and her life choices become even more limited. You may not think that's fair, but that is the reality."

Actually I think it's demeaning to suggest that someone's life choices become limited if she's not 'valuble' to a "high status" partner. I also don't think that a woman's choice to show her body being penetrated should reduce her 'value' in any way. You say 'that is reality' but perhaps then, it is that reality that we should change rather than limits the woman's rights. I'd rather give women rights than take them away. I'd also say that if a woman is empowered when advertising her beauty she can also be empowered in a porn film.

"Because sex is a very intimate part of a human being's functioning. This is why, for example, we regard sexual assaults as being worse and deserving of harsher punishment than non-sexual ones of comparable severity."

It may be more intimate than a persons looks (for example) and hence the harsher punishment, but that does not justify saying it shouldn't be a commodity. Where you draw the line on what is too intimate and what should be allowed is very subjective too.

It is demeaning, but it's also a fact. I didn't make it up - we all know it's true and it has been observed scientifically.

Some things you can change, this one I suspect not, not for the majority of men or women.

Yes give women rights, but gocve them facts so they can make educated decisions too.

What you assert is wishful thinking, nothing more.

elf don't think that argument ever works. bcs there are worse things in the world doesn't mean that another thing isn't bad.

I didn't say that it should fall under everybody elses radar; it just falls under mine.

Monkeytrousers: a fantasy is indeed a fantasy. And some men have rape fantasies where they iimagine themselves the victim - and some women have fantasies of themselves as the perpetrator. Pretty much everyone fantasises about engaging in unacceptable behaviour (shooting your bullying boss, stealing things, smashing the windscreen of the driver who just carved you up), and the vast majority of individuals who fantasize, leave it at that. Disturbed individuals who go on to act out their fantasies of harming others are a) in a minority and b) capable of being triggered by all kinds of stimuli that would have little or no effect on other people.

ANd I fail to see why anyone shoudl be condemned for earning money by exhibiting themselves if they do it freely. WHy is it only OK to enjoy sexual display if you don't get any money?

The majority of men fantasising about rape are fantasising about being rapists and some of them act it out. It doesn't just stay in their heads. One in two young men think it is OK to rape a woman in some circumstances.

People may fantasise about things but they don't usually find them sexually arousing like men who fantasise about rape will. The erection is a reinforcer.

I hope people will look at that Gail Dines video that I linked to because she talks about mainstream porn and how horrendous it has become. Ass to mouth is another one I'd forgotten about. You can work out what that is. That's what's popular.

"fail to see why anyone shoudl be condemned for earning money by exhibiting themselves if they do it freely"

because it's not usually that way round madamez.

i like exhibiting myself - hey, i could make some money out of this!

no, more likely:

i need money - i'll have to exhibit myself

and in any case i certainly don't condemn the person who does this.

I think it's extremely arrogant to say that having sex or engaging in sexual display is 'inherently' degrading. This is where the pro-censorship position meets up with the right-wing misogynist one: telling women that they don't know what they are saying, that someone they never met knows more about their lives, experiences and motivations than they do themselves and that they are too stupid to be allowed freedom of choice.

Perhaps you'd all like to consider competitive sport for a moment. THis is an industry where young people's bodies are exploited, they are often encouraged to take drugs which will harm them or engage in repeated strenuous physical activities which will damage their growing bodies; their sense of morality is often interfered with ('winning at all costs is what matters') and plenty of other people make a lot of money out of them. And for the majority, once they get a bit older and their sporting 'careers' end, they are left with not much money and few skills to use for the rest of their lives.

They probably won't end up with PTSD or as drug addicts or dead madamez which is the future for a fair number of porn performers.

What is this pro-censorship position you speak of?

Elizabetth: is your 'one in two' figure derived from the Malamuth 'likelihood to rape' study? In which case, are you aware that a) the scientist asked hsi subjects how likely they were to rape if it was guaranteed they would not be caught and punished - a faulty hypothesis from the beginning and b) he labelled all those subjects (a good 35%) who said they would not rape even in the above circumstances as 'low' likelihood to rape rather than 'no' likelihood to rape...

madamez its a good analogy, sport and porn
so they're both horrid.

No it comes from the Tory leader, David Cameron.

As for the Malamuth study, however he phrased the question don't you think it's fucking frightening that one in two men would be likely to rape if they knew they could get away with it? It's not like they don't get away with it with the low reporting rates and then the almost non-existent conviction rate.

Actually, getting addicted to steriods is very damaging.