To despair that people still vote Tory given their track record and outright dishonesty?

[flashbac]

I don't get it. Its depressing. We deserve better than this surely? Why give them the green light? What kind of society do we want? One where liars get our approval?

And you will be deciding for us Yoga tomorrow... what is personal abuse and isn't and what is reasonable debate and isn't.....? Shutting down free speech because the original intentions are distorted and labelled 'abuse' or deciding on acceptable parameters of reasonable debate as determined by one person.....what a dangerous world you are hellbent on creating.....

THe BBC video of two Hartlepool men saying they wanted a change and blaming their local council for government austerity is why we have Brexit and a Tory government. It beggars belief that anyone can be so ill informed and still be given a vote. It also means other parties aren’t out there challenging the lies and engaging with those suffering from this governments policies.

The Green Party successes are barely reported.

I see Tories want to change mayoral voting system now that the majority are red. Quell Surprise! We need PR for a fair outcome and democracy but that’s not going to happen.

A few shoots of realism around Kent and impact of Brexit. Now haulage firms are beginning to be affected, it might be more obvious it’s a disaster.

It beggars belief that anyone can be so ill informed and still be given a vote

Lemonroses are you another supporter of ‘suffrage only for the educated’?

‘ It beggars belief that anyone can be so ill informed and still be given a vote.’

Posts like this make me shudder. There are many things wrong with our political system but universal suffrage isn’t one of them.

@LemonRoses

THe BBC video of two Hartlepool men saying they wanted a change and blaming their local council for government austerity is why we have Brexit and a Tory government. It beggars belief that anyone can be so ill informed and still be given a vote. It also means other parties aren’t out there challenging the lies and engaging with those suffering from this governments policies.

The Green Party successes are barely reported.

I see Tories want to change mayoral voting system now that the majority are red. Quell Surprise! We need PR for a fair outcome and democracy but that’s not going to happen.

A few shoots of realism around Kent and impact of Brexit. Now haulage firms are beginning to be affected, it might be more obvious it’s a disaster.

What was really galling was the BBC reporter just nodding along without questioning their bollox.

@Bearnecessity

And you will be deciding for us Yoga tomorrow... what is personal abuse and isn't and what is reasonable debate and isn't.....? Shutting down free speech because the original intentions are distorted and labelled 'abuse' or deciding on acceptable parameters of reasonable debate as determined by one person.....what a dangerous world you are hellbent on creating.....

A colleague is actually doing a study into whether legislating against hate speech involving one category of protected characteristics increases hate speech against another, non protected group.

Theres psychology behind it which I won't describe very well but basically it's thought that people need a varying amount of blame free venting in societies and that legislation majes them feel "permitted" to ramp up that venting against non protected groups. The need to vent obviously varies from individual to individual but the boundaries in terms of how abusive the venting can be are thought to be eroded by repeated exposure to more abusive posting. People lije to join in and appear to fit in with others around them.

I asked on another thread of people who have lived abroad have noticed the same levels of abuse against politicians in their countries. I certainly didn't notice it being nearly as bad in the other country I lived in, but I might have missed it.

I think it's quite telling that some posters see nothing wrong with making really quite disgusting remarks about politicians. To me, that's someone who has either been brought up to think thats OK, or has eroded boundaries. To be unable to distinguish personal abuse from criticism is worrying. I do wonder whether such people immediately resort to extreme verbal abuse in other areas of their life, when they're going to the supermarket, for instance - "You are the spawn of Satan and even your mother disowns you if you can't find me this kind of bread immediately".

Sermon over! It has been awful on here around the time of the election, there do seem to be a lot of bullying type comments made to OP's - even more than usual! And it's pretty awful to read.

Sermonise to your heart's content Circles, no reasonable person advocates hate speech. An awful lot of us on here have been appalled at the language and treatment of individuals on here, usually under the apparently justified umbrella of a god given right to 'challenge the government of the day'. There are no papers in existence that fully account for and explain all communication through the lens of both pyschology and semantic difference and understanding....

They are difficult issues and people have strong view. Peter Mandelson has an article in today's Financial Times on these issues although thankfully, I doubt Labour or Stamer will listen to him so Labour will therefore continue to be unelectable.

I don't mind hate speech. I am on the side of freedom.l would support the right of someone to say I should be hung drawn and quartered for voting Tory. I would rather let freedom prevail. The fact someone above who presumably votes Labour thinks some people are too stupid to vote says all we need to know about Labour. It has decided its core voters are stupid, racist and sexist and tells them they are awful and thus has alienated them.

you used only tyo be allowed to vote if you were over 30 and were a rate payer/home owner and also at one stage male. I think we will not be going back to those days. The UK lost an EU case against our restriction on voting for prisoners but agreed a compromise where I think only the long term offenders cannot vote. Other than that we have fairly universal suffrage for those of 18 or over.

Corbyn was accused of being a populist yet we have a populist PM willing to peddle any old bullshit as long as they dont have to encact any of it
@JustAnotherPoster00 you realise that the main policy of the Conservative 2019 manifesto HAS been enacted?

To be unable to distinguish personal abuse from criticism is worrying. I do wonder whether such people immediately resort to extreme verbal abuse in other areas of their life

I completely agree with you - they sound hysterical and unhinged. And it seems to be pretty much exclusively a Labour supporter affliction. Tory voters may think Labour policies are unworkable or unaffordable or counter-productive and that their supporters are naive, but never do they resort to the same sort of hateful haranguing and invective spewing. It's bewildering. I've seen one of my really good friends do it, all through the referendum campaign then again in the run up to the GE. She was like a possessed, swivel headed loon. I didn't recognise her. I was on the verge of blocking her completely.

I sometimes wonder if Labour supporters are actually a big part of Labour's problem in recent years, in the way that Remainer attitudes were a big part of the Remain campaign's problem. Too much negativity and witch hunting cof the opposition, not enough focus on the positives of their own campaign.

These days we are harangued by them from all angles because of social media and forums like this one. It's relentless. The stuff that's directed at us used to be confined to a heated conversation in the pub heard by six people at most, and the subject of bile venting probably wasn't even there to hear it. Once you left the pub that conversation ceased to exist, except as a vague memory once you'd sobered up. Not like today.

Now half the country gets told daily and very publicly that the other half (or rather less than half as it turns out) thinks we are all a bunch of fascist, toffee nosed cunts or uneducated racist plebs who don't care if babies starve and disabled people die in the gutter.

As a way to make friends and influence people it's not really a winning formula.

And I think for many people, it has started to feel like it is actually the Labour Party speaking directly to them, rather than just some sanctimonious little gobshite with Marxist pretensions on Twitter.

How did a thread about the Labour doing badly in the local elections turn into a pile up on Diane Abott?
@Yogatomorrow perhaps because she was all over the TV and radio the morning the results were announced calling for a return to Corbynite policies.

@SunflowersAndLavender a bit of an overheated imagination going on there. But hey you rant, if it gets the rancour out of your system. Anyone can see it's far more nuanced that that, both sides are equally as guilty of 'spewing' out insults. Enjoy your victory while it lasts.

Many posters on this thread yesterday made out that Starmer's background was the issue. I don't see it. Blue-collar family, made a career. No issues which I can see. As far as I am aware, he's not part of the "Islington set" who are very hard left but enjoy many of the privileges of life which their policies would deny to other people.

The thing which yesterday's posters have missed is what the response of the average voter is if asked "what do you think of Keir Starmer?"

Because I'm pretty sure that most people would answer "who?"

There will also be some who remember him as a leading figure in the campaign to reverse the referendum result (alongside people like Gina Miller). While this helped him get the leadership, it won't be so popular in places like Hartlepool.

The other aspect is that whoever the leader was, it will take some time after the last one and his Shadow Cabinet before the public regains its trust again. It took more than a decade after the last far left leader.

The other aspect is that whoever the leader was, it will take some time after the last one and his Shadow Cabinet before the public regains its trust again. It took more than a decade after the last far left leader.

Yes, I’ve made this point before. Kinnock spent
two Tory terms rooting out the Militant tendency from the Labour Party and making the party electable. But he didn’t win power, he narrowly lost to Major in 1992.

Blair couldn’t have done that job. But he was able to lead the party to victory in 1997.

I don’t want to believe that it will take that long this time. But it was always going to take longer than one year.

“And I think for many people, it has started to feel like it is actually the Labour Party speaking directly to them, rather than just some sanctimonious little gobshite with Marxist pretensions on Twitter”

I actually think you are right there - lots of people upthread saying they wouldn’t vote Labour due to Owen Jones, who to my knowledge has never held any kind of position in the Labour Party. It would be like me saying I won’t vote Tory because of Melanie Philips.

And lots of posters responding to posts on here “that isn’t how you win votes”. When nobody on here is up for election.

It is very odd 🤷‍♀️

@Andante57

It beggars belief that anyone can be so ill informed and still be given a vote

Lemonroses are you another supporter of ‘suffrage only for the educated’?

No. I believe there should be political education though, so people at least understand the difference between local and central government areas of responsibility. It used to be called civics.

Universal suffrage was long fought for. I do wonder about proxy and postal votes for those who have a significant learning disability and how they can truly be offered a vote that is theirs, rather than their carers, but small numbers and unlikely to be unduly influential.

Universal suffrage was long fought for. I do wonder about proxy and postal votes for those who have a significant learning disability and how they can truly be offered a vote that is theirs, rather than their carers, but small numbers and unlikely to be unduly influential

That’s a good point. I’d never thought of that - though as you say probably small numbers.

@DiddlyWiddly

I came to the conclusion the NHS is completely unfit for purpose. Just so beyond fixing we'd probably be better tearing it down and starting from scratch Sad but true Personally, I think a lot of its issues are down to privatisation.. My DH used to do commercial building work, the NHS would be charged absolutely eye watering amounts of money for extremely simple, small jobs because a private company held the contract and could charge whatever they pleased.

This just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the models that work in most modern countries which ensure 1) healthcare free for those who need it 2) social security payments that genuinely pay for healthcare (unlike in the UK) so that those who can pay, do, and 3) much better health outcomes for everyone. It's mot rocket science. Just read the international evidence.

I was surprised at how well it was handled.

I assumed bodies would have piled up in the streets before lockdowns were implemented

PM wanted to go down that route was bullied out of it by scientists, poor love. 😭

@Doomsdayiscoming

I’ve always thought Johnson was a stand up bloke. Wouldn’t trust him with my wife, mind.

But yeah, what does that matter? Sure he has to remember a lot of Birthdays, but Moonpig has handy reminders these days.

He’s levelling up the country. Soon the South will be just as shit as the North. Give him a break!

Hahhaaaaaa so funny!!

Anyone can see it's far more nuanced that that

But they can't. That's the problem. for people on the left, politics has become very binary. No attempt at understanding nuance or context at all.

both sides are equally as guilty of 'spewing' out insults. That's just not true. You are comparing perfectly normal political criticism from the right with vile insults and personal attacks from the left.

Enjoy your victory while it lasts. Thanks. I am and I will. Brexit and Tory leadership is set to last for a long, long time. You enjoy your years in the political wilderness.

LemonRoses

I agree. It’s incredible that some of our poorest communities will still vote for them.
I cannot understand how people would vote for such a total lack on integrity
I cannot understand how people are willing to accept one of the highest excess death rates in the world just because they can now sit outside Weatherspoons.
I sadly believe they feel Brexit was a win because of the referendum result and the fact we’ve left the EU bit aren’t seeing the devastation it has reaped.
Mainly I think it’s really sad that there is a move towards far right politics, othering and a lack of compassion for those less fortunate.“

Your reply is part of the problem, LemonRoses.
You talk of compassion but can’t resist throwing in a sneery Whetherspoons’ reference and pointing out how stupid they were to vote the way they did in the referendum.
This sort of blanket writing off of great swathes of people as not knowing what’s good for them isn’t going to win any votes. Understanding of why they feel the way they do just might.

This posted above is correct "Now half the country gets told daily and very publicly that the other half (or rather less than half as it turns out) thinks we are all a bunch of fascist, toffee nosed cunts or uneducated racist plebs who don't care if babies starve and disabled people die in the gutter".

I can understand why the left is cross. They have not won an election since 2005 and they think they are right and cannot understand why so many people support Tory policies. If they keep not understanding they will not get elected which is fine by me. If we have a general election in 2023 as is possible that could mean we have Tories in power until 2028.