To despair that people still vote Tory given their track record and outright dishonesty?

[flashbac]

I don't get it. Its depressing. We deserve better than this surely? Why give them the green light? What kind of society do we want? One where liars get our approval?

She put her sons in private school for similar reasons to my own. The difference is she belongs to a party that wants to take these options away from others.

Blackberry-yes I agree. Hypothetical bint!

Or hypocritical...even...

My guess is Labour will not move to the left as it knows that will make it even more unelectable. Stamer will sack a lot of people and probably try to make it all more middle of the road Blairite. Hope not but we shall see.

@Onetoomuch

That's actually pretty spot on *@HalcyonSea*. Explains the huge swaithes of the uk that are blue concentrated in certain areas. *@Andante57* Don't think there's much criticism of the tories on this thread but funnily lots on the one about the grenfell cladding issue maybe have a read of that one which is less one sided ? *@CirclesWithinCircles* Wind your neck in, no ones being racist Your post makes no sense. I would like to see him offer opposition and genuine principles well listen to pmqs, go onto the labour website, read his twitter feeds then you will get a handle. In opposition you get to blame the government for its failings and have no real responsibility that's the idea of an opposition surely ? He criticises and he's accused of being unpatriotic, he agrees and he's weak. He can't win. Labour are excited to have a leader with a proper career for once Tony Blair was a barrister, Harold Wilson a modern history lecturer at Oxford, again a grammar school boy who worked hard. Starmer's dad was a tool maker and mum a nurse, he went to grammar school and did well.I don't particularly care for the 'sir' but it is what it is. To call him a champagne socialist is ridiculous. Can't socialists work hard, have ambitions, show aspiration ?

Is there a reason you keep trying to give me reading material?

So far, you've told me to:

• read Tatler (so I can better understand the tax system)
• look at the Labour Party website
• read Keir Starmer's postings on Twitter
• and I've to listen to pmqs as well (because obviously no-one else could possibly do that without you suggesting it first)

Is there something I've said that has made you think I need to have my reading prescribed? I admit that I said that my choice of newspaper is Algemeen Dagblad, but a lot of us who worked in Brussels got into that habit.

A lot of the stuff you have suggested above is simply propaganda, and I'm not sure why some, even with their touching devotion to their dear leaders, actually think others would enjoy biased, low level propaganda.

Anyway, tonight I have to read over two Tomlin Agreements and attempt to reconcile Article 17 of the Charter with Article 245 of the TFEU and why they might be outdated, and if anyone has any thoughts on that, I'd love to hear them. I work in very intense bursts and pop on here off and on when I'm working intensely, for light relief.

@Xenia

My guess is Labour will not move to the left as it knows that will make it even more unelectable. Stamer will sack a lot of people and probably try to make it all more middle of the road Blairite. Hope not but we shall see.

Starmer has the brains and background to make a good leader, but for me he is too reservedly conciliatory, in the Theresa May mould, to break the deadlock of lack of Labour popularity. He has too many unreformed communist in the labour party to deal with.

Parties which are vibrant can attract a lot of votes, even though their policies aren't that popular. Most people I know hate the SNP and can't think of anything worse than independence, but enough people vote for them to keep them running Scotland. And you cannot criticise the sheer effort Nicola and her supporters put into appearing on tv at every opportunity or giving interviews. They are unavoidable. She comes across as energetic (admittedly I can't stand her!) But she's always there. Her brand image must be immense.

Keir - a bit bland. Very calm but no-one really knows where his principles lie. That is why I think Boris does well. He's erratic, but the reason he hasn't suffered a loss in popularity following his alleged comment about rather seeing people dying than have another lockdown is because it summed up what many people thought about lockdowns. There was political capital to be made by the opposition during lockdown but they didn't want to risk being accused of endangering lives. But someone in British politics really needed to stick up for human rights and personal freedoms. Instead, Boris can claim to have both saved lives and be a champion of personal freedoms, because no other party has stepped in to that very open and available void.

That is why I think Boris does well. He's erratic, but the reason he hasn't suffered a loss in popularity following his alleged comment about rather seeing people dying than have another lockdown is because it summed up what many people thought about lockdowns.

That and the fact that Boris nearly died of Covid last year.

Circle I agree with a lot of what you say in that post about Starmer

I don’t actually think the media give him a hard time I think he’s not connecting as well as he has to when he speaks. It’s really hard because he does have a fair few good qualities.

However if Labour chooses anyone else I can’t see there’s anyone I’d contemplate voting for

BJ says lots of offensive and stupid things, but he speaks freely and unscripted .

Poor Kier Starmer sounds like he is not allowing any of his real, personal, own thoughts to come out of his mouth. He is so afraid of saying the wrong thing, he pretty much says nothing. No of-the-cuff reactions. At least Corbyn had a mind of his own, said thing, said the wrong thing, sometimes did not know the answer. But he was and is a real person and never a slick politician. People are sick of slick politicians with a clever answer (lie) for everything.

Starmer is too much like the politicians of old, the ones who speak a lot without saying anything. Smooth maybe. Cleverly staying out of trouble. But so many see him as a politico bot.

Trump and BJ have said outrageous things, racist and mad and wrong. But they often said what people secretly thought at the time. The “let the bodies pile high” comment was crass but it showed us his reluctance to enforce a lockdown, and that made people actually feel better about him, and about lockdown. Calling devolution a @disaster” also did not go down well, but again was, and is, what lots of people think

I think

But what do I know

He also uses hyperbole. He previously said that he ‘would rather be dead in a ditch’ than request an extension to the Brexit deadline.

How did a thread about the Labour doing badly in the local elections turn into a pile up on Diane Abott?

All the things said about diane abott on previous posts could have been said about many Conservative MPs:

diabetic - TM
ill health - BJ nearly died of covid and left a huge mess when in hospital
gets numbers wrong - PP
speaks slowly - PP again (also gavin williamson has a silly voice if that is also an reason for being a poor mp)
hypocritical - too many to mention
hypocritical bint - can that include men as well, or just female MPs?
black woman - actually i don't think there any of those in the government (although maybe they should get one because according to one pp that's the only reason Diane abott could have been elected)

Disgusting.

I realise the thread has moved on now and these comments were mostly on the previous page. Sorry but such nasty and unnecessary stuff got to me.

You are not being unreasonable to hope that qualities such as honesty, decency, care for our environment and planet, belief in social fairness and ensuring equality of opportunity for all would be qualities we would vote for in our government. However, you are naive to think that is currently what most British people want.

Many British people feel entitled to earn bigger salaries than ever before no matter who pays for that- if it means higher prices for all, poorer public services, exploitation of the environment, they don't care. They feel entitled to expensive holidays abroad, petrol guzzling SUVs, bigger brand new houses usually built on the destruction of our countryside. Many care nothing for the less fortunate and believe the state should provide less in terms of public services, not more. They demand low taxation so they can keep more of their money - the public purse suffers and so do the most vulnerable in our society.
We seem to have created a generation who could not give a toss about the environment- they have lived on fast food for the last 14 months, chucking their polystyrene containers away on our streets, beaches and in the countryside, along with their takeaway cups, plastic face masks and alcohol cans and bottles. Many have sat at home for 14 months, hoarding their salaries while others have lived in poverty or lost jobs. They don't care if Boris is a liar, if he breaks the rules, if Hancock and their cronies benefit from billions of public money being handed to them on plates - they'd like a piece of that themselves if it was on offer.

I think the British public, on the whole, have emerged from the pandemic feeling greedy and entitled and sorry for themselves. They don't care much for society as a whole.

I realise the thread has moved on now and these comments were mostly on the previous page. Sorry but such nasty and unnecessary stuff got to me

Yogatomorrow there’s been masses of criticism of the Tories and anyone who votes for them on mumsnet. Do you consider that to be ‘nasty and unnecessary’ or is any criticism of the Tories, however unpleasant, acceptable?

@Yogatomorrow

How did a thread about the Labour doing badly in the local elections turn into a pile up on Diane Abott?

All the things said about diane abott on previous posts could have been said about many Conservative MPs:

diabetic - TM
ill health - BJ nearly died of covid and left a huge mess when in hospital
gets numbers wrong - PP
speaks slowly - PP again (also gavin williamson has a silly voice if that is also an reason for being a poor mp)
hypocritical - too many to mention
hypocritical bint - can that include men as well, or just female MPs?
black woman - actually i don't think there any of those in the government (although maybe they should get one because according to one pp that's the only reason Diane abott could have been elected)

Disgusting.

I quite like the way Dianne Abbott speaks - she has a nice voice and seems quite caring. Its just the communist policies.

I cannot stand John McDonnell. I actually get an urge to get as far away from him as possible when I see him on tv! Its almost overpowering.

I did like Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale, a bit wasted really the pair of them.

I suspect Boris is ruthlessly ambitious and his affability hides that, but at least he has character. And energy. He definitely has a lot of energy. The wallpaper and even the affairs don't concern me that much, a lot of men behave much worse than him and get away without any criticism.

@CirclesWithinCircles you are a one , obviously very important, maybe offer your immense talents to the labour party. Your musings on them are unique. Could teach us northern w/c a few things no doubt.
I'll just toddle on back to my thoroughly mundane job as an ITU nurse and keep my uneducated trap shut

[quote Onetoomuch]@CirclesWithinCircles you are a one , obviously very important, maybe offer your immense talents to the labour party. Your musings on them are unique. Could teach us northern w/c a few things no doubt.
I'll just toddle on back to my thoroughly mundane job as an ITU nurse and keep my uneducated trap shut [/quote]
A one what? Nice to see your support for other women though.

You probably missed it, but on this thread I've mentioned that I currently live in the north, and was patronisingly told that I had preferences for politicians from Liverpool and Yorkshire. Then I clarified that it was the north of Scotland, and was patronised by some English posters as being a bit thick. I then let slip that I read Algemeen Dagblad, to counter an accusation that I read the Daily Mail, and was then further patronised by being told that I needed to read Tatler to better understand the British class system.

So before you start throwing around snidey remarks, I apologise that some of us aren't conveniently easy to pigeonhole but do you really have to be so nasty? This is an internet discussion group, its really just a bit of light relief!

Yoga tomorrow....how predictable your post is....couldn't agree more with Adriante...

The absolute scathing, vile criticism on these threads about BJ of late and the tories beggars belief....

We should all be too afraid to talk facts for fear of being called racist, sexist...etc,etc.

Are you trying to suggest DB's withering intellect has secured her, her position for so many years...? I wouldn't mind but my post is quite innocent if you are not reading it with a rabid need to point the finger over very little...

Meant DA....

Even MNHQ at it now I see.....says it all doesn't it....

@CirclesWithinCircles fair enough. No offence meant. I try not to get too engaged with these type of threads but it's difficult

[quote Onetoomuch]@CirclesWithinCircles fair enough. No offence meant. I try not to get too engaged with these type of threads but it's difficult [/quote]
Thanks for your reply. I think a lot of people are noticing how heated the internet is becoming lately, and if I could, I would do without it, at least for a while!

I post on here far too much but I do it when I'm working intensely and then I leave for a bit to break the habit!

Why do people think that others must only vote the way they do
Unless you have lived in others shoes you can't assume they should vote one way or another just because they maybe come from a poorer community etc

Yogatomorrow there’s been masses of criticism of the Tories and anyone who votes for them on mumsnet. Do you consider that to be ‘nasty and unnecessary’ or is any criticism of the Tories, however unpleasant, acceptable?

I agree that personal attacks on people who vote Conservative are unnecessary and completely poison political debate.

I don't agree that highly personal attacks on one MP (bad wigs?!) who was not even running in these local elections is okay. And can't be justified by people being mean about BJ. (Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean it's okay.)

Also I disagree that it is unacceptable to critise the government of the day. An independent media is a one of the pillars of democracy. MN is a form of media for political discussion. Of course the government that makes decisions that affect our lives is going to be commented on in less than glowing terms. It is not the same as personal abuse.