AIBU, is this utterly insane?

[sunshinepunch]

Hi

Having a really hard time with heart or head decision.

Trying to keep things as short as possible but don't want to drip feed. I'm married, late 40's. My husband is also late 40's and we have twin boys aged 8.

We moved from Scotland to Victoria (Australia) five years ago when the boys were wee.

My husband works full time and I'm part time and the boys are at a local school they like. My husband works long hours in a senior office based job and enjoys it here. His role can be quite technical and isn't found in every office. I pick up very junior full time admin roles (temporary reception assistant/packing envelopes/filing/data entry etc). We've not owned property in Scotland but did manage to save £20,000 which we used for visas and to move out to Australia.

Right, now to my AIBU. I would really like to move back to Scotland next year but my husband doesn't really want to go. I am originally from New Zealand but lived in Scotland for 11 years. My husband is half English half Scottish but doesn't really have much family to speak of except for his mum and aunt (elderly in Scotland). My husband and I earn better money in Victoria but it is really expensive here. I feel like we could almost never get on the property ladder. We have a little bit of savings (about $11,000 AUD) that would be used to move back and initial settling back costs. As we still have about a year to go if we move, it's likely the savings will increase a little.

Ever since we've lived in Australia I have felt like a fish out of water and I really want to go back to Scotland, where my close friends are. I have no ties with New Zealand anymore. I miss everything about Scotland. I've tried and tried here in Australia but it just feels like it's all keeping up with the Jones's and everyone already have all the friends they need. I feel like I'm an outsider looking in on someone else's life. I volunteer, take any job I can and invite people to coffee dates/play dates but it's just a closed book. I miss my friends so much & their kids, who my boys used to play with. But it's more than that. Scotland is "home" to me. I adore everything about it. It's where I feel settled. I feel like five years is enough to know Australia is not home. We moved here initially for a bit of adventure and thought it would be a better life as a family. My husband thinks Australia has a higher standard of living than Scotland and thinks kids are kids longer here/have better lives. He's earning more here and enjoys it here. He's said he will move back however if I really really want to.

We would apply for jobs before leaving (hopefully lining up interviews) and work hard back in Scotland. We both always had jobs in Scotland, but I know things will take a while to get back to some sort of normality.

The biggest issue is that we don't have any assets. I'm really concerned that we may be moving back to what could be a huge backwards step. We'd like to get a mortgage one day but I'm conscious we're late 40's, no assets and would moving back to start again as such. I'm worried I'm could even move my family to possible poverty.

Is it insane to even consider this?? Are we too old to be considering "starting anew"? I'm an optimistic person (and we've always made things work, we work hard) but just feel so dejected and an outsider.

I'm so desperately unhappy here, but I have to think of what's right for me and my family's future.

Do I just push my feelings away, smile and pretend?

Help........

Who instigated the move in the first place, op? Were you hesitant back then?

If you were a year or two in I would say you are going through classic homesickness and to battle through. Five years in is a long time to be feeling so unsettled and unhappy.

3/4 of your family are happy and settled. Moving the family back could cause worse issues, job insecurity, potentially unhappy dc having to leave friends and start again. Unhappy dh who may resent you. What if he point blank refuses to move back?

I’d be waiting to see what happens in the coming 3-5 years with the results of Brexit, potential second Indy Ref. IMO Scotland has gone massively downhill in recent years, exacerbated by the pandemic. Buying a house isn’t the be all and end all, especially if there if jobs are limited, leisure opportunities are limited and public services including schools are increasingly under funded and under performing.

Do you both have good earning capacity?
If you don't have savings or the likelihood of inheritance your options for buying property are limited wherever you are but if you both have good jobs then you can have a good quality of life in Scotland.

Gosh, that’s a difficult one. It sounds as though the friends issue is the main one, and you have tried hard with that. In UK a life in Australia often sounds like the perfect dream!
Could you think of staying until the twins finish school? Sorry no real advice here!

There's FA way I'd ever move to Scotland from there.

Feeling the way you have for five years (ever since you’ve been there) is a huge sacrifice that you’ve endured for the happiness of your family. You have my utmost respect for that.

It’s good to hear that your DH is has said that he will move back if you really want to. But could you possibly start to put a plan into effect? A goal to save as much as possible and maybe have enough to buy a place back in Scotland in a few years time? Not to uproot your children until they reach secondary school age perhaps?

Having such a goal may help you mentally cope better with your current unhappiness?

I presume you are in regular contact with your friends back in Scotland? Use that regular contact to help focus on your long term goal - and that it would be a few years your husband may himself warm to the idea and want to do it, not only just for you, but for the benefit of all of you.

And of course, the long term goal would ensure that it is the right thing to do.

I made a similar move back to UK and will PM you with my thoughts and experiences - if you'd like?

Thanks all for your comments, appreciate advice.

@LagneyandCasey funnily enough it was me! I had spent a bit of time here after leaving NZ and moving to Scotland. My husband hadn't been but was keen as punch as it seems many Brits are. I had thought about what would happened if my husband refused to go but I try to not worry too much about a worry unless a worry worries me. I don't know. I do know I would not split up my family. My twins haven't really made strong friendships. They play a lot with eachother. I haven't mentioned Scotland a lot to them but both of them tell people they're Scottish and will live there one day!

@Hopdathelf
I hadn't realised Scotland had declined so much. Worries me a lot about your schooling comment as my boys would go to a council school.

@Beeeeeeeeeeeeeep if we both worked full time my husband could earn ok but I earn lowly admin pay. We're good savers however. I would like to buy a family home. We've never had that. Let our boys decorate their rooms, have a family base (I haven't had that since my late teens when my mum passed).

I think if you do make this move, you need to make sure you’re doing it with your eyes open in terms of how things back in Scotland will have changed. Will you be able to slot back into your old friendships easily? Or are there friends who have gone through key life changes while you’ve been away (marriage, divorce, children etc.)? I’m not saying don’t do it - but be realistic enough to acknowledge you won’t be stepping five years back in time.

My concern is you’ve so little money behind you. 6k gbp? Your flights, your rental deposit, moving costs are going to eat that up and then some. And you’re both going back to unemployment. Unemployment in a high unemployment period. You Will need to get straight onto benefits unless you’re really lucky immediately with work.

Personally I think you need to get some more money behind you before you consider this.

I think if you are going to do it, timing it so that you move to an area a year before your dc go to secondary school would be the aim. Does that give couple of years to explore options ?
I ve no idea about school system there but making the right choice for their education would come second to the top after your ultimate happiness.

I'm sorry you are sad and unsettled. It always seems like the dream to move overseas but reality is different.

There was a thread not so long ago about a family with in NZ. She was v unhappy abs wanted to leave. Her H was less amenable than yours I think though.

I can't think of anything worse than living in Australia and I would be incredibly miserable. I'd rather live in a shoebox in the UK. The people I know who've been and liked it are people who are conservative, often racist and, frankly, not very bright. One friend spent 10 years in Perth, which she describes as the worst 10 years of her life. Even my Aussie friends wouldn't dream of going back!

Money isn't everything though and a lot depends on where in the UK you plan to live. There are areas where property is cheaper, but if you need to be in London or the SE, you'd have to have fantastic incomes as at your ages you'd only be eligible for a 20 year mortgage. Would you both be able to earn more here?

I really feel for you, OP, and totally get how it's making you unhappy.

Standard of education in Scotland is poor and continuing to fall. There is a liklihood of a second independence referendum looming. Womens rights have been hugely eroded under the SNP. Quite a few people I know are talking of leaving Scotland because of the above. Tbh I would stay where you are.

Sounds really difficult and there are no guarantees. If you moved back would you be able to live near enough to your friends for them to be a proper part of your day-to-day life again? And also save to get on the property ladder? The nice parts of Scotland are expensive. Also, it sounds silly, I love Scotland but when I lived there, the weather really got me down, and that was only compared to England!

@passthepoutine that would be amazing, yes please!! Hope things are working out for you?

@osbertthesyrianhamster do you mind sharing why?

@Pottedpalm I know what you mean, I blame the TV show Wanted Down under- absolutely nothing like reality!! Thanks for your comment.

@ripples101 thank you so much. Your kind words really made me smile. I suppose I just kept on thinking 'hold on, it'll get better" and also seeing how happy my husband is. You give some really good advice. I suppose the reason for not staying longer is thinking it's even harder to obtain jobs if we moved in our 50's and despite having a goal, wishing our lives away just waiting and waiting and living a half life. I also think the boys would have stronger roots and after another two to three years my husband being perhaps less accommodating (bless him, he's been amazing) I want to take care of his happiness too. I also should have said my Mother in law in Scotland is lovely and our boys are her only grandkids. They miss her and despite she not putting any pressure on us, I know she would love it if we were back. Not a reason to move I know but feels...

Sorry if this sounds harsh but you seem to have a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. Scotland is not what you remember it as - it is a much more insular and polarised place than even a decade ago. There is no way I could recommend you moving back to Scotland now, if you do then it's pretty likely in a few more years you'll be pining for relocation back down under.

My understanding of Australia is that Victoria and NSW are the most expensive parts. People I know have moved to Western Australia where prices seem cheaper but wages still good. Have you considered that? Not sure what it's like up in Darwin or down in Tasmania, maybe you could look at those places too? Moving to anywhere else in Australia will be much less of an unpleasant surprise than you would have if you moved to Scotland, I can assure you!

I think the Australia / Scotland question should be secondary to the massive issue of you being in your late 40s with no assets. I know not everyone is fortunate enough to own a house / have a mortgage, but you did have £20k and are a 2 income family. This would terrify me. What are you retirement plans?

I think you should both sit down and work out a financial plan for your future. This might then make your choice clearer. My starting point would be owning own home with mortgage paid off by 65. How could this be achievable? Work it out and do it.

Scotland is very cold (especially this year!!) and with all the politics/indy stuff that’s going on atm it might not be the ‘inclusive’ place you think it will be...

Sorry if this sounds harsh but you seem to have a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. Scotland is not what you remember it as - it is a much more insular and polarised place than even a decade ago. There is no way I could recommend you moving back to Scotland now, if you do then it's pretty likely in a few more years you'll be pining for relocation back down under.

I agree with this. 3/4 of you are settled in school, jobs and the lifestyle. I think it would be madness to uproot all of this for something you had 5 years ago. There's no guarentee you'd slot back into old friendships, and the children won't have many memories of the life they had 5 years ago.

I also think the issue here is no assets and very little savings in comparison to the cost to do this. You have no financial buffer at all.

I think if you could commit to waiting a couple of years and saving enough to ensure you can make the move and survive financially for a few months it would be better for you.

Because otherwise you’re taking a massive gamble.

We’re good savers however.

To be candid, I don’t see any evidence of this, you are in your late 40s with A$11k to your names. I think it was madness to move over there in the first place with only £20k and my concern would be moving back and once again restarting with so little behind you.

No matter what direction you are moving, I think you need to get much more substantial funds behind you before contemplating a move. I think you are right to think be concerned about moving your family back to poverty.

I have done the move to Australia and back, I too was there for five years. I wish I had not moved back now, thee is a tendency to look back with rose tinted. Now I think, once you have lived in two countries it is hard to be fully satisfied with either and maybe the best thing to do is make the most of it.

Agree strongly with the above from Mustardseed.

If you still want to return to Scotland, give it a couple of years to wait and see what happens regarding independence. That’s likely to change everything and has the potential to put a massive spanner in the works.

I’m from Scotland but living in England. To be honest I believe Scotland had become more small-minded and insular under the SNP, and is pursuing independence at all or any cost. I’m worried for the future as half my family are up there. You need to think carefully.

You couldn't get a bawhair between women's rights in Australia and women's rights in Scotland so I wouldn't make a decision based on that.

I think the pp who talked about your financial security is absolutely right. Australia is so expensive, Scotland definitely is cheaper (outside certain parts). Is owning a home there a) feasible eventually and b) as important as it is in the UK? Is it a renting culture and so you'll be OK if you never own a home? That's not the case in the UK as you know, so if it is in Oz then that's a big tick.

Education is important - and very definitely on the slide in Scotland - but motivated children with no SNs will do well with parental support.

Do you have a permanent visa, or are you dependent on DH continuing to work as he's doing? That would be a big concern for me.

All that said, you're important and you get a voice. Have you had a holiday back? Maybe that would either lay things to rest or make you more determined. Either is better than being half in or half out!

Jeeps, thanks for all your advice. I'm brand new to mumsnet and this is amazing. Trying to keep up with comments

@StillCoughingandLaughing great name! I have phone and WhatsApp calls with my friends regularly - one to one and group. I know things have changed but I've never had such a great group of friends. We're all close and still involved in each others lives. Totally agree I need to remember life hasn't stood still.

@Bluntness100 yes agreed. We have money f for flights already separately (incredible generous MIL), the money I quoted was for everything else. IF we moved it wouldn't be for a year so as mentioned savings would hopefully rise. Completely agree it's not very much money at all.

Thanks @MatthewHBpig the boys are in year two here. I think they would be in P3 there (at current date). Thanks for your kind comments. I'll look up to see if I can find the other post ... when I work out how to search!

Thanks @LakieLady people here are quite different that's for sure. Although I haven't managed to crack the friendship thing, I have found most are friendly (on a base level, nothing deeper) and most seem to be happy to help those less fortunate (from my volunteer experiences). Luckily we haven't experienced racism but I'm not saying it doesn't exist just because we haven't felt it. We would only move to Scotland. Thank you for your kind words.

@dementedma that does not sound good. Are there places I can read balanced facts on this? This is really worrying.

@Kiitos funnily enough I love the cold weather. Victoria winter is great, wish it was longer! I don't feel I need day to day life with my friends in it, even two weekends a month and the occasional night out would suffice! I just would love to have the option to catch up. The distances aren't too bad in Scotland when you compare to here!

Op, something made you want to leave Scotland in the first place, so clearly you were not so in love with it when you made the decision to go. Otherwise you’d never have considered moving, never mind you being the one to suggest it.