AIBU, is this utterly insane?

[sunshinepunch]

Hi

Having a really hard time with heart or head decision.

Trying to keep things as short as possible but don't want to drip feed. I'm married, late 40's. My husband is also late 40's and we have twin boys aged 8.

We moved from Scotland to Victoria (Australia) five years ago when the boys were wee.

My husband works full time and I'm part time and the boys are at a local school they like. My husband works long hours in a senior office based job and enjoys it here. His role can be quite technical and isn't found in every office. I pick up very junior full time admin roles (temporary reception assistant/packing envelopes/filing/data entry etc). We've not owned property in Scotland but did manage to save £20,000 which we used for visas and to move out to Australia.

Right, now to my AIBU. I would really like to move back to Scotland next year but my husband doesn't really want to go. I am originally from New Zealand but lived in Scotland for 11 years. My husband is half English half Scottish but doesn't really have much family to speak of except for his mum and aunt (elderly in Scotland). My husband and I earn better money in Victoria but it is really expensive here. I feel like we could almost never get on the property ladder. We have a little bit of savings (about $11,000 AUD) that would be used to move back and initial settling back costs. As we still have about a year to go if we move, it's likely the savings will increase a little.

Ever since we've lived in Australia I have felt like a fish out of water and I really want to go back to Scotland, where my close friends are. I have no ties with New Zealand anymore. I miss everything about Scotland. I've tried and tried here in Australia but it just feels like it's all keeping up with the Jones's and everyone already have all the friends they need. I feel like I'm an outsider looking in on someone else's life. I volunteer, take any job I can and invite people to coffee dates/play dates but it's just a closed book. I miss my friends so much & their kids, who my boys used to play with. But it's more than that. Scotland is "home" to me. I adore everything about it. It's where I feel settled. I feel like five years is enough to know Australia is not home. We moved here initially for a bit of adventure and thought it would be a better life as a family. My husband thinks Australia has a higher standard of living than Scotland and thinks kids are kids longer here/have better lives. He's earning more here and enjoys it here. He's said he will move back however if I really really want to.

We would apply for jobs before leaving (hopefully lining up interviews) and work hard back in Scotland. We both always had jobs in Scotland, but I know things will take a while to get back to some sort of normality.

The biggest issue is that we don't have any assets. I'm really concerned that we may be moving back to what could be a huge backwards step. We'd like to get a mortgage one day but I'm conscious we're late 40's, no assets and would moving back to start again as such. I'm worried I'm could even move my family to possible poverty.

Is it insane to even consider this?? Are we too old to be considering "starting anew"? I'm an optimistic person (and we've always made things work, we work hard) but just feel so dejected and an outsider.

I'm so desperately unhappy here, but I have to think of what's right for me and my family's future.

Do I just push my feelings away, smile and pretend?

Help........

I have lived overseas for many many years, so I know exactly how you are feeling. Living the 'dream life' really? When it really boils down to it no dream life is complete without your family and friends. A life feeling isolated and alone is no life at all. You have given it your best shot, five years is a long time but MOVE BACK as soon as you can. Or your children will reach an age and it will be impossible to move them, exams, then girl friends and then they will find jobs and you will be stuck there indefinitely unless you want to be the other side of the world to them.

You have listed everything you love about Scotland, how much you miss it. As long as you have really thought through the dark snowy winters and jobs more or less lined up.

You can start saving to buy a small house, and feel at long last like you belong and are at home. Be prepared for the moaning that it is cold, not as fun etc etc but really you have no roots at all in Australia, and if one of you were to be ill (as we have been) or one of you dies you are a very long way from home and help - this is especially the case as you get older. I can't express enough life is too short to endure this any longer.

Go home, be happy and do whatever you can to make it work for your dc. Try and organise a party for them with old friends etc etc.

I know that you have received lots of advice, Op. My concerns would be whether you are always going to think that your life would be better elsewhere, how your children will deal with another complete upheaval and how you are going to survive financially.

This isn't meant to be a criticism but you say that you are good savers, however in practical terms you have no assets such as property. Will that change, do you want it to?

If I were your husband I'd be a bit fed up with moving my life because you wanted to, and then moving it all back again. It could seem like a backwards step to the rest of your family.

OP, where in Scotland do your DH’s mum and aunt live? Is that the area you are thinking of moving back to?
I think regardless of where you have lived you think of Scotland as home and I think after 5 years in Australia you have given it a really good go. I couldn’t feel so unhappy and then muster up renewed energy to keep trying. I think you need to put your energies into moving back to Scotland. At 8 I think your kids still are small enough to adjust very quickly and also have the benefit of getting to know their grandmother and aunt.

Just wanted to say that I don't recognise this apocalyptic version of Scotland that some are painting on here! In my area nobody is complaining about schools (more than they have for the last thirty years anyway), there is no massive 'polarisation' or divide between families caused by the independence debate, and life is pretty much the same as it was before Brexit (with the exception of some sectors such as fishing etc). The SNP are not a perfect government, but no government is, and the SNP are not a permanent fixture! They'll be gone at some point, as happens to every political party.

I am sure you are capable of working out whether the areas you work in are likely to be affected by either Brexit or potential independence. You can't be certain of the future of course, but then nobody can. Australia (from here) looks a bit dodgy due to the seemingly high impact of climate change, but again I don't think you can predict the future to that extent and it wouldn't necessarily be a reason to leave! I can't see the difference between potential impact of Scottish independence and impact of climate change to be honest.

What I am trying to say is - most of these factors people are debating are either transient like political parties, unpredictable so you can't really base decisions on them anyway, or very much based in opinion (such as whether Scottish society is tearing itself apart). Of far more importance to you and yours are personal factors - where do you want to live? You have lived in both so you know both - which lifestyle do you prefer? Can you ask your Scottish friends about how they view Scotland now compared to ten years ago? You'll get opinions you trust from them (unlike me, who you've never met)!

To me it sounds as if you are genuinely unhappy in Australia, your kids are pretty ambivalent, and your husband prefers Australia but wouldn't be unhappy in Scotland. If this is the case, I think your unhappiness trumps his preference.

My situation at present has some strong similarities to you, although the country I have moved too I have only been in for a much shorter period. I really empathise with your situation. I have no friends here to speak of - yet. And hope this will change, but am not confident this will happen, given the quality of friendships in London that I already have and miss; I have such a rich history with them, they are irreplaceable - ‘my people’ in London - both a small intimate and much wider circle of very dearly loved friends who I had hoped to grow old with. Im struggling too in very similar concerns. I am finding it hard, but in my particular circumstances I know I need to give it more time. I’ve not been as long in my new country as you have.

Regarding your situation, it’s clear there is no easy decision, and nor do I think a ‘right’ choice, but I think you need to go with your gut on this. The grass isn’t always greener. Perhaps you need to do a matrix of pros and cons for you, your husband and children - and then sit down with your husband and talk it through. Weigh up your joint values and priorities and see where the balance lies even if very very finely balanced.

The fact that after 5 years you still don’t feel settled or happy with this decision, leads me to lean slightly towards favouring a return to Scotland. You only get one life and you need to be happy. I suspect your kids will be happy wherever they are, if both you and your husband are content.

You have a difficult decision and no easy choices

unwuthering really unkind comment. Op is entitled to try new adventures with her family and to see if it worked for them. So it hasn't this time, but it has offered a great insight into life elsewhere, an education and wonderful memories for her family. Her boys will have an expansive view of life and lots of life stories. It is not a lost cause or failure, just a change of chapter and direction. Are you always such a stick in the mud?
Good for you for giving it a try op!

I would be hugely worried about getting jobs back in the UK and needing benefits to help towards rent etc and whether you would be eligible for any help after having been out of the country so long.
We came back to the Uk in 2001 after almost five years in NZ and walked into jobs easily but things were a bit different back then with the jobs market.
I know it's very hard being lonely but I think in the longer term Australia offers a much better quality of life for your boys.

I don't think it's an unkind comment. I think it's factual. But clearly many on the thread do think only the OP's feelings and whims count in this situation.

Hi OP, I live in Glasgow and I'm really surprised by some of the negative comments on here about Scotland. I was born here and have lived here all my life apart from 18 months that I spent in London. My teenagers go to Glasgow City Council schools and whilst not perfect, the schools are not the shambles that some other posters have portrayed. We have a lovely house in a nice area close to the City Centre but with reasonably easy access to the coast and hills. I am very happy here. Yes, the weather is often inclement (!) but that's what I'm used to.
I also don't feel that it has become more insular and narrow-minded. I think the opposite in fact. I love Nicola Sturgeon, voted for independence (and would do so again) and against Brexit. IMO Scotland is more socially democratic than the rest of the UK in that we are paying tax at higher rates to fund no tuition fees for students, free dental care, free prescriptions etc. I can't say whether you should come back or not but I do not recognise my country from many of the very negative comments on here.

@Aprilx

We’re good savers however.

To be candid, I don’t see any evidence of this, you are in your late 40s with A$11k to your names. I think it was madness to move over there in the first place with only £20k and my concern would be moving back and once again restarting with so little behind you.

No matter what direction you are moving, I think you need to get much more substantial funds behind you before contemplating a move. I think you are right to think be concerned about moving your family back to poverty.

I have done the move to Australia and back, I too was there for five years. I wish I had not moved back now, thee is a tendency to look back with rose tinted. Now I think, once you have lived in two countries it is hard to be fully satisfied with either and maybe the best thing to do is make the most of it.

I agree. Don't want to be mean but you have nothing. Smaller cheaper houses can be found if you were looking for them.

Your boys are only eight, bear that in mind, they may not even remember life in Australia - and if they do the memories will be patchy. Children of that age will enjoy life almost anywhere, and I think as long as you keep it super positive and upbeat, we are going back to see Granny, Auntie and all of our wonderful friends. Take them on the Harry Potter train as a treat, and remind them about all of the magical aspects of Scotland you will have no problem with the transition. They are young enough to adjust, but not for much longer. 10/11 years old and beyond you are likely to come up against much more opposition.

Dh will need to find his feet again with your old lives, does he have friends? Any connections? He may prefer Australia, but I am sure his priority is your happiness, long term. No one can be happy if one is homesick constantly in my experience.

As you age you might be glad of extensive family and friends, expat life is very lonely into old age, especially if your health declines. You have no guarantees that the boys won't want to come back to Scotland or the UK as young adults, as many do from Australia, how galling after sticking it out for as long as you have only for them to disappear as adults!! Your life is just as important as theirs op. They will make their own life choices in time.

I think many people underestimate just how hard it is to integrate into a new life - if you are young, single and it is temporary - that is one thing, but a permanent move is really hard.

Best of luck with your decision op.

I haven't RTFT so apologies if this has been covered, but I believe there can be big problems with credit history moving back to the UK from abroad. It can make it very difficult to get a credit card, get a mortgage, etc. Worth checking out, if you haven't already. I am inclined to support PPs who suggest that you try to save more money before coming back.

Possibly not the best time to be moving back to Scotland - the full effects of the pandemic and Brexit haven't hit yet and the turmoil of another independence referendum is looming. Australia seems to have been cushioned from the effects of the pandemic, being slightly more self sufficient.

I would be incredibly concerned about lack of savings in your shoes, in fact I would be panicking like hell and probably not be spending everything I had on another international move.

I've lived in both Australia and Scotland and tbh find the description of Australia on here more far fetched than the description of Scotland - Australia is an amazing place with friendly and optimistic people. Scotland at the moment seems very 'on edge'. It's still a beautiful country but not doing as well as it should be, despite the SNP's promises.

I think you need the latest copy of What Colour Is Your Parachute and a career plan - you're not too old to retrain and if you're serious about buying a house (wherever) then it'll be much easier with two incomes. I'd seriously consider a career that occurs everywhere for future flexibility, if DH is more niche.

I am a teacher and teacher friends in this position have taken jobs in boarding schools, accommodating the whole family, so they can save for a deposit.

I would move back, as you aren't on the property ladder yet.

Sounds like you can get jobs quite easily in Scotland, so you will be in a similar situation.

I don't know anything about property in Scotland but if you think it's more feasible to buy there then you should go for it. The only thing is if you will be able to afford to buy near your friends?

laviee I am not sure you fully appreciate how difficult it is to live with such levels of homesickness. I am pretty sure op would take Scotland on edge over her lonely life in Australia any day of the week. That is the point. You can't change what you love, what you miss, where your heart is and feelings of home. Ultimately this is a stronger reason to move back then bloody brexit. The pandemic is under control, if she lives it another few years the children will find it so much harder.

I am a teacher and teacher friends in this position have taken jobs in boarding schools, accommodating the whole family, so they can save for a deposit

That is a great suggestion!

The thing that jumps out at me is that you'll have spent £30k moving between countries, when that could have been used towards a house.

I guess it depends on how precarious you feel your future is? It's future happiness versus current happiness, really.

Tough decision, I feel for you.

I'm not Scottish but have been living in Scotland for a number of years. I currently live in an expensive area outside Edinburgh. I also do not recognise this wasteland that some posters seem to be talking about.
Whilst that may be virtue of living in an affluent area, I also have family (in laws) on the west coast enjoying the type of life enjoyed by a pp - affordable housing in pleasant towns with good schooling and an abundance of extra curricular / outdoor activities.

I do concede that there are some "bad" areas, and I think you would be doing your family a disservice to move them to such an area. I think you would need to do a huge amount of research on where you were moving. For example you would need somewhere with good schools and somewhere that could provide opportunities for your kids.....but also cheap housing to allow you to get on property ladder.

However, I do feel the crux of it is that you are looking at it with rose tinted glasses. I get that you're not happy. But you could easily move to a town in Scotland with people who "already have all the friends they need" and aren't interested in meeting more. Other than your existing friendship group, I don't think you are any more likely to make new friends in Scotland than you are in Aus.
I liked the "bloom where you are planted" phrase used by a pp. if I were you I would retrain into a better paying, more fulfilling job, where you will hopefully meet like minded people and make some friends.

Best of luck to you whatever you decide.

The pandemic may be under control from the perspective of the disease itself but we're nowhere close to feeling the financial effects. Op's husband is in a good job, her dcs are doing well at school. I'd be thinking about what it would do to them to move back to Scotland now. What if, for whatever reason neither the Op nor her husband walked into jobs. If they were younger and in a better financial position, OK, not much to lose. But that's not the case here. It doesn't appear that the Op will even be able to move back to Scotland in the very short term so perhaps for the next twelve months pull out all the stops, try to improve employment chances, look for a better paid job, put a real effort into meeting people, joining things. If you're still in the same mindset in 12 months you've at least got a bit more money behind you, will have more of an idea on the outlook for Scotland going forward and be in a better position to make the move.

* So, your husband has a good job and is happy in his work, and your sons are happy and settled at their school, and you - the pipedreamer who wanted to move to Australia (based on a tv show??) - are the only one who wants to move again because you have a(nother) fantasy that your life will be better back in Scotland and your friendships will be exactly the same as they were five years ago, totally fulfilling, and absolutely worth uprooting your entire family for... *

^Great post.

[quote Horehound]@CirclesWithinCircles if you are Scottish you had free university allowing you to proceed with your PHD, yes? Do Dutch people get free university in the Netherlands?

My ex-SIL had free university coming here from her homeland of Austria.
So I don't know why you think you're leaving such a shitland.
It's got a reputation from two bills has if? Hate crime bill and GRA? Yeh ok.

Fair enough about value for money thing, can't have everything. I personally feel UK tax is low.
Just had a quick look at healthcare too. Mandatory to have an insurance policy costing €120 at least a month. So swings and roundabout hey.
Good luck though![/quote]
Horehound thanks for your "advice" and apologies to the OP for derailing the thread to some extent, but to correct some of your assumptions

I did my Masters degree in The Netherlands and worked there part time while doing so. The economy is currently thriving, so it was a shock to come back to Scotland, particularly the economic disaster zone that is the centre of Aberdeen. I hate the central belt, parts of it resemble some sort of no-man's land crossed with a post industrial wasteland. Its not the most attractive environment.

Why on earth would you think anyone would be accepted for a paid teaching post phd based around "two bills"? What a really odd thing to write. Equally, do you really think there is enough room on an internet DG to detail an entire phd proposal and literature review? You don't get offered paid phds lightly...

The Dutch Government puts the answers to your questions in English on easily accessible websites, but to summarise - Dutch university fees are around 2100 euros per year to all EU students but students in the Netherlands can claim social security benefits and maintenance grants. Thats right up to masters level, as masters degrees (at least one) are standard in much of Europe.

You criticise me for striving to be what you assume is a higher level tax payer (how terrible!) but there is the 30% rule for immigrants to the Netherlands in skills shortage areas for up to 5 years, plus you can deduct your commuting to work expenses from your personal income tax bill up to 120k distance from your work. And its a realistic cost, not a ridiculously low mileage allowance. Public transport is much more universal and cheaper so just getting to work is much more pleasant and tax efficient.

I will gladly pay 120 euros per month for a health system which will actually give me antibiotics as I will never forget the 90 minute commute I had from a village just outside Edinburgh on public transport to my Edinburgh city centre job and getting pneumonia one winter and not being treated for it by my GP as I "looked too healthy". I did contract Lyme Disease when I was in NL and my Dutch GP spotted it straight away and issued me with 21 days Doxycycline which cured it and I'm not convinced the NHS would have done that.

Council tax can be around 350 euros per month, though I will give you the WOZ based on cadastral value and also much, much higher car and road tax (but hey, at least you get things like universal pavements in return and don't have to walk on the road itself). Personally, I will be taking a reliable oldtimer and paying 1/4.

The highest pensions in the world make the tax seem actually quite cheap, particularly when you deduct your mortgage interest tax relief as well. Housing can be cheaper to rent, if you are prepared to rent properties with staircases that would never pass the stringent fire safety tests that are now mandatory in Scotland which, along with all the licensing, pushes up rents. I have been told l will be paying 350 euros per month for a university studio apartment, including gas, electricity and tax. I will probably move out into private rented or even look to buy after the first year.

Bet you're wishing you never asked now! But a good knowledge of the tax system is actually necessary for my phd as theres a lot of crossover, IFYSWIM.

Albert Hein and Jumbo expensive for food??? Or do you mean restaurants? I love eating spag bol in Hema, its like less than 3 euros!

How wonderful for you to summarise what you assume to be my entire phd proposal as relating to only 2 legislative bills! Even I was surprised! I assume you are unaware of the weak separation of powers, lack of a bicameral legislature, poor accountability and lack of constitutional checks and balances converted over through devolution? I'm really skimming the surface. I don't know why such things aren't taught in Scottish schools because they certainly are in countries like Austria, which you mention. Stuff like the Named Persons legislation only being dropped by the SG due to a legal threat based on breach of human rights?

My audience at international conferences particularly love to hear me read out the SG's opposition to extension of FOI requests to EIRs (because it would "increase staff workload" and "it couldn't envisage a scenario where anyone outside Scotland would make such a request") or its commitment around the time of the last independence referendum, not to becoming a signatory to the ECHR and incorporating the Charter rights but to a "Scottish version of the ECHR". That was a cracker! Then theres the Edinburgh statutory notices scandal involving the local authority. That was a biggie.
Theres just so much material...international audiences (particularly the French for some reason) lap it up. Its very unusual to see a reduction in personal freedoms and a loss of constitutional protection in a modern Western European country.

I'm not saying Scotland is a shithole - its not really that bad and I might consider a holiday there in years to come, its just that I personally have lived in other countries and its not somewhere I would choose to live if I don't have to. Certainly not as an ambitious working woman...if I had lived here all my life and never experienced anywhere else, I might feel differently.

My school level education in Scotland left a lot to be desired. I was sent by my parents to private school in 4th year because it was not possible to study Higher History at my school, or its sister schools, and the headmaster was very unhelpful regarding the ambitions of children wishing to go on to university. The Careers Advisor I saw in 3rd year of school advised me to downgrade my career ambitions "to avoid disappointment" and argued with me, and at that age its quite hard to stand your ground, but I did so. How many children of that age would have been intimidated into thinking they weren't cut out for university and just given up? I would like to say that things have changed now but I'm not convinced they have.

I don't really need your luck, I make my own. After my paid phd, I intend to stay on in The Netherlands, apply for permanent leave to stay (possible after 5 years) and then citizenship after 10. It would probably be equally easy to move to France, as I have professional connections there who have made it clear I would be welcome, but I like NL and my Dutch is a lot better than my French!

Apologies to the OP but I'm a bit irked at times by Scottish xenophobia/assumptions!

@CirclesWithinCircles oh God, can you hear my eyes rolling around my head from where you are? I think you've forgotten you wrote Scotland is getting a reputation for passing hairy bills recently. That comment was nothing to do with your PHD and I certainly didn't link that comment about two bills to your PHD. It's a bit weird that's all you're going on about but I guess you're living up to the stereotype of someone doing a PHD making sure everyone knows about it
I'm in the NE, work in and around Aberdeen, the very large company I work for has two huge sites in Aberdeen, Oil and gas sector, survived covid with no redundancies huzah! That's pretty good isn't it?!
I don't really need your luck, I make my own
Cool, it's called "being nice". You may need some luck in the world going by your pretty dire attitude to people you clearly think to be inferior to you. You can drag your supposed intelligence around wherever you go, but it won't go far if you're unpleasant to people. I was being supportive regardless of our differing opinions. How awful of me.

Apologies to the OP but I'm a bit irked at times by Scottish xenophobia And this is just bollocks!

[quote Horehound]@CirclesWithinCircles oh God, can you hear my eyes rolling around my head from where you are? I think you've forgotten you wrote Scotland is getting a reputation for passing hairy bills recently. That comment was nothing to do with your PHD and I certainly didn't link that comment about two bills to your PHD. It's a bit weird that's all you're going on about but I guess you're living up to the stereotype of someone doing a PHD making sure everyone knows about it
I'm in the NE, work in and around Aberdeen, the very large company I work for has two huge sites in Aberdeen, Oil and gas sector, survived covid with no redundancies huzah! That's pretty good isn't it?!
I don't really need your luck, I make my own
Cool, it's called "being nice". You may need some luck in the world going by your pretty dire attitude to people you clearly think to be inferior to you. You can drag your supposed intelligence around wherever you go, but it won't go far if you're unpleasant to people. I was being supportive regardless of our differing opinions. How awful of me.[/quote]
I don't think anyone's inferior to me but I do think you make your own luck in this world. NL is a very middle class country, you'd absolutely hate it there. Best to stay in Scotland I should think, in case you're ever tempted to move.

Scotland used to produce internationally renowned academics, scientists, doctors, medics of which its people were right proud, so the latter part of your post really sums up the negative attitudes which seem to prevail amongst to many. I think the SNP and their local council attitude are partly to blame for this paucity of ambition, but its the sheer aggression and quick resort to insult/misquoting that seems to characterise this level of debate.

What a pity the Hate Crime bill can't be used to silence critics of the current Scottish government, eh? (or can it...)