AIBU, is this utterly insane?

[sunshinepunch]

Hi

Having a really hard time with heart or head decision.

Trying to keep things as short as possible but don't want to drip feed. I'm married, late 40's. My husband is also late 40's and we have twin boys aged 8.

We moved from Scotland to Victoria (Australia) five years ago when the boys were wee.

My husband works full time and I'm part time and the boys are at a local school they like. My husband works long hours in a senior office based job and enjoys it here. His role can be quite technical and isn't found in every office. I pick up very junior full time admin roles (temporary reception assistant/packing envelopes/filing/data entry etc). We've not owned property in Scotland but did manage to save £20,000 which we used for visas and to move out to Australia.

Right, now to my AIBU. I would really like to move back to Scotland next year but my husband doesn't really want to go. I am originally from New Zealand but lived in Scotland for 11 years. My husband is half English half Scottish but doesn't really have much family to speak of except for his mum and aunt (elderly in Scotland). My husband and I earn better money in Victoria but it is really expensive here. I feel like we could almost never get on the property ladder. We have a little bit of savings (about $11,000 AUD) that would be used to move back and initial settling back costs. As we still have about a year to go if we move, it's likely the savings will increase a little.

Ever since we've lived in Australia I have felt like a fish out of water and I really want to go back to Scotland, where my close friends are. I have no ties with New Zealand anymore. I miss everything about Scotland. I've tried and tried here in Australia but it just feels like it's all keeping up with the Jones's and everyone already have all the friends they need. I feel like I'm an outsider looking in on someone else's life. I volunteer, take any job I can and invite people to coffee dates/play dates but it's just a closed book. I miss my friends so much & their kids, who my boys used to play with. But it's more than that. Scotland is "home" to me. I adore everything about it. It's where I feel settled. I feel like five years is enough to know Australia is not home. We moved here initially for a bit of adventure and thought it would be a better life as a family. My husband thinks Australia has a higher standard of living than Scotland and thinks kids are kids longer here/have better lives. He's earning more here and enjoys it here. He's said he will move back however if I really really want to.

We would apply for jobs before leaving (hopefully lining up interviews) and work hard back in Scotland. We both always had jobs in Scotland, but I know things will take a while to get back to some sort of normality.

The biggest issue is that we don't have any assets. I'm really concerned that we may be moving back to what could be a huge backwards step. We'd like to get a mortgage one day but I'm conscious we're late 40's, no assets and would moving back to start again as such. I'm worried I'm could even move my family to possible poverty.

Is it insane to even consider this?? Are we too old to be considering "starting anew"? I'm an optimistic person (and we've always made things work, we work hard) but just feel so dejected and an outsider.

I'm so desperately unhappy here, but I have to think of what's right for me and my family's future.

Do I just push my feelings away, smile and pretend?

Help........

Meant to add...my Dsis did a move to Aus and it worked v well for her DH but not for her. They moved back at huge cost and couldn’t afford to buy where they wanted to live (near family). It was tough for a while. Fast fwd a few yrs and they own a lovely home in a beautiful part of the country and are much happier. You are definitely NOT too old to move and start anew.

I think you've got typical ex pat Rose tinted glasses on and I think you'd feel the same wherever you lived. Your problems actually seem to be that youre a relatively low earning, part time worker and therefore struggling to buy, and you don't integrate well. Ive lived abroad and I've always found it a great opportunity for making new friends because I do sport and join running clubs, etc. Don't you have any hobbies where you can meet people? Singing? Dance? Acting? Creative writing? History?

Life in Scotland can be a little grim... Public services are terrible, limited and expensive and the whole ethos seems to be very left wing but snobby at the same time. The pressure for independence is relentless. I'm shocked at how intolerant people here can be at times. The standard of living doesn't compare well to the European country I lived in and it feels very controlled - so often the ethos seems to be to stop you from doing something, rather than enabling. Just a small example but I've lost count of the times I've been told I can't run on my local running track because it's a Bank holiday/being used for football/weather's too bad/health and safety - and the damn thing is fenced in with high security fencing and needs to be booked and paid for in advance!

I think uprooting 3 happy family members because you're homesick risks creating huge resentment in the future. If you had a fabulous job to move for, then that would be different. But you have no jobs to even move to! You don't know whether you'd have to take a pay cut or have a long commute and realistically, since most jobs are in the central belt, you'd be moving in order to buy something cheap in a not very affluent area to enable you to drive for hours on bad roads to occassionally visit the Highlands.

You seem to have a tendency to fail to research your destination country thoroughly and you need to consider working full time and retraining in order to earn more money to buy. Again, I don't know why your emphasis is on talking to friends to find out what life is currently like in Scotland, because they're just going to give you their own personal, possibly biased opinions. There's plenty of non biased information out there for you to read - you should be reading up on the tax regime, rental market, proposed changes to the law, mortgage lending rules, criticism of the education system and reduction in places at Scottish universities for Scottish students and the lack of EU membership, which tbh if you did move back to an independent Scotland, would be unlikely to change until you were bearing retirement age. If however, you want to move back to Scotland because you think it's somewhat less aspirational/less emphasis on working hard to achieve the rewards of a better standard of living then sadly I have to say you're probably correct.

It's also May and has been snowing/freezing/hailstones off and on for the past few weeks.

We’ve been in Scotland four years.

Education standard has dropped but is still ‘good’
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50642855.amp

Do you know where you would move to? It would be worth you looking at both drug and deprivation figures as there are large areas with issues.

OP sounds like you have two problems actually

1. your worries about money and financial security for the future
2. you're unhappy with your current life

You've concluded that both of these could be solved by moving back to Scotland.

I'd first take a step back and try to examine if that's really going to be the case, objectively.

From your OP it reads as if your husband and DC have been able to crack on at life (job, school) whereas you've been treading water. That's really hard. But moving again isn't necessarily the only solution.

OP,
I think you might not be very rich in housing or saving assets but I think you are very rich in life experience, loads of people wouldn’t have the balls to relocate to the other side of the world. I firmly believe that is such an amazing thing to have done. I think if you have done it once you can do it again, you just need to get your husband onside, start saving as much as possible. Register with estate agents in the areas you want to be in, get an idea from a UK mortgage advisor on deposit requirements and make a plan. You might have to buy a smaller house and then property jump once you are back but it’s definitely possible and you will be on track to where you want to be not treading water somewhere you don’t.

@Horehound

And I agree with others that it's a bit weird to see so many people dissing Scotland as if it's some hellhole. It's not. It's lovely. Are all these posters naysaying it, living in Scotland, and if so and it's so bad, why are you not living in Oz?! ;)

I'm getting funding from the Dutch government and a Dutch University to do a paid PhD in the Netherlands, to start in February 2022. I'm not Dutch, and I'd never get funding from the Scottish government to do the same. Part of my research proposal is to look at whether EU competition law should apply to the property market and I will be using the Scottish rental market as an example of where it could create a fairer system than the piecemeal over-regulation and exploitation of the rental sector as a cash cow by some local authorities. After my phd, I will be looking to apply for Dutch citizenship as the opportunities in the Netherlands are greater and you get more value for money in what you pay in tax than in Scotland. It's also a stable country...

Being able to write and discuss in detail about Scotland is actually very fashionable and in demand right now in certain academic fields, as its getting a bit of a reputation for passing certain rather shocking pieces of legislation and not having many Constitutional protections which are standard elsewhere, even though its on the periphery of Europe.

Hope that answers your question!

I don't want to give any advice as it's your lives and such an important decision. This thread has annoyed me though. I don't recognise this blasted heath image of Scotland presented here. I live in Scotland and I love scotland. I wonder how many of the posters are actually living here.

What I do think you have to think about maybe is whether you might be romantically looking back at a different period of your life. Maybe a time where it was easier to make those close friends and where you had more time and freedom and whether it would be the same situation? The other thing is the question about whether you might be someone who wants a big change every few years and whether all this uprooting will answer your inner discontent. And I too was struck with the fact your work sounds very unsatisfying and whether thinking about perhaps retraining or researching what there is that you could really get your teeth into and whether this might add to your well-being?

There may be potential dangers in uprooting others who are happy and causing resentments. Why your husband is so much happier there than you also needs analysing. Was he happy before? Would he be happy in scotland? If you do move then careful planning so that kids have the best chance of starting things with others and making friendships might be worth thinking about. Sounds like in the past you've gone for adventure without lots of planning and research which is fine and means you've a lot of life experience to draw on. But maybe now any new plan needs a lot more of a plan and a lot of research as there are so many people to get things right for. I think coming back yourself maybe even for a few months and seeing where you'd live and what your life would be might be worth a chunk from savings. The dream needs a bit of cementing in reality somehow. Would you be able to afford to be where your friends live and can you find the lifestyle you crave? Is the job situation there for you two? It's easy to romanticise the past. And it might be right for you. But without proper research and everyone getting involved in the decision to make sure it's right you could risk resentment further down the line if the reality is very different to the dream. Lots of sympathy from me though. Feeling at one with a place is very important to me. I moved abroad (not to Australia!!) In my twenties and got fairly unhappy. Although born and brought up in scotland that initial move was after uni in England. I'm back in scotland now and I do feel it's my home. It's hard to put your finger on these things sometimes. My worry in your situation is where the heart of everyone else is in your family group.

From your OP it feels like you are the one of the four of you who has never actually put down roots. The boys are at school, settled there. Your DH has a good job which he enjoys. Yet you have drifted from one part time, temporary job to another. This can't help you in terms of settling down and making friends. When we're adults, most of our friendships tend to come from the workplace - so if you keep moving on from one to the other, you're never going to make long-term/deeper friendships.

Why don't you get a permanent job?

I live in the hugely expensive South East of England. I’ve spent a lot of time in Scotland as I have family there. It’s lovely! I’ve experienced welcoming people and my nieces have acquired a great education.
I would love to buy there but sadly my DH had his eye on Norfolk for retirement grrrrr

I think it’s unfair to blast a whole country on limited opinions.

Would you be able to get your super paid out if you move back to Scotland permanently? You may find you have enough $$$ in there for a house deposit.

You know what, you only left Scotland 5 years ago, you left after the indyref, SNP had been the majority govt for 5 years by then... it's really not changed that much OP. There is sometimes an 'everything's shit here' tone about Scotland on MN but you would not come here and go 'OMG what is this strange new landscape...'

I hadn't realised Scotland had declined so much. Worries me a lot about your schooling comment as my boys would go to a council school.

It really hasn’t. There are issues, for sure, but not enough to make up for not having friends and family around you. The election tomorrow will give a bit more certainty one way or another about Indyref, but honestly, I haven’t seem that much of a difference in life here in the past 5 years.

If it were me I’d be coming home if after 5 years I hadn’t settled. OH could make his own decisions.

I very rarely add to a thread but yours really tugged my heart strings. Haven't read all so apologies if I've missed any changes.

I'm from Scotland, west coast to be precise - this is important.

If you and your children feel like Scotland is home then come home. I moved to Europe with dp and 7 year old ds at the time, didn't last as long as you but gave it ago and was desperately home sick.

I thoroughly believe Scotland is one of the most beautiful, adventurous and friendliest places you could live. It has a lot to offer and even so called deprived areas have excellent community facilities and extra funding, opportunities etc because they are "deprived".

Back to my west coast comment specifically. Housing is cheap, mega cheap. Half an hour to Glasgow on the train. An abundance of beaches, hills, parks, rugby clubs, football clubs - any sport you could ask for.

Example, you could get a 3 bed private rent house with garden etc for £500 per month or a bought property similar size for £80,000.

Having a look at indeed and there's plenty wee local jobs.

I shop mostly in Aldi, food is cheap, bills are reasonably cheap. My children play rugby, mountain bike, and just go on adventures all the time. Life here is fab I thoroughly recommend it!

I’m Scottish and I don’t see the anti Scottish sentiment on here anyone is talking about.

The op didn’t move to Australia with the intent of coming back five years later. They moved because they clearly thought it would be better than Scotland. And so far the kids and husband pretty much agree it is and are happy.

The issue is the op is unfulfilled and unhappy. That’s unlikely to change coming back here and doing low paid jobs here, but this time with an unemployed husband and unsettled kids. Geography isn’t going to change how she feels, even if she does see a friend every few weeks.

Op, why not say you’ll move when the kids are entering their last year in primary. In the meantime focus on saving properly but importantly retrain in something you enjoy. Try volunteering, clubs doing things that interest you, and try to make a social life for yourself via that route,

I strongly suspect if you had employment you liked, interests and like minded people /friends you’d not want to leave at all.

Constantly moving country isn’t the answer. It’s sorting the root cause of yout issue. Which is lack of friends and unfulliling work.

@CirclesWithinCircles if you are Scottish you had free university allowing you to proceed with your PHD, yes? Do Dutch people get free university in the Netherlands?

My ex-SIL had free university coming here from her homeland of Austria.
So I don't know why you think you're leaving such a shitland.
It's got a reputation from two bills has if? Hate crime bill and GRA? Yeh ok.

Fair enough about value for money thing, can't have everything. I personally feel UK tax is low.
Just had a quick look at healthcare too. Mandatory to have an insurance policy costing €120 at least a month. So swings and roundabout hey.
Good luck though!

It's difficult to advise whether you'll be better off financially without knowing what your incomes might be in Scotland and where you want to settle. If your DH's job is in Edinburgh or somewhere else expensive and your joint income will be low-ish then no, I wouldn't come back . If you can live anywhere in Scotland, so choose somewhere cheaper and have a decent income, then yes you might be fine. The property market and cost of living is really, really variable across Scotland.

Schooling is variable too - we are happy with our local council school but it's in a sought-after area and over subscribed. Not keen on plans for our local secondary but we'll cross that bridge in due course. I do think it is possible for kids to be happy and well educated in most Scottish schools but they're not held up as the pinnacle of education they once were.

I hate the political climate in Scotland at the moment. Women's rights, faux socialism and independence above all else make me want to weep for my country. I can't figure out where else to go at the moment and don't want to move away from family but our hands may be forced in the future.

The weather has got me down this year, more so than usual. I've never minded it before but perhaps that was when travel and entertainment was more freely available and varied.

I really feel for you - it's hard for you to be so unhappy where you are, and knowing your family are all quite content is really tough. Hopefully you can make a decision you're all happy with.

@CirclesWithinCircles oh and of you are striving to get into the top tax band you'll be paying 52% tax, in the UK this would be 45%.
Food is also more expensive.
But as I say, wish you luck, hope you get your achievements and wish you all the best :)

I would hate Australia. Id be straight back to Scotland. I lived abroad for years in the tropics and have never been happier than when I went home.

5 years is a long time to feel unhappy for- I don't think you would be unreasonable to return to Scotland provided you commit & make sure you move to the right place. I've lived here a long time & obviously Covid had been hard, and there are some pretty unpleasant trends in politics (SNP scandals, trying to strip away women's rights, possibility of another referendum) but its not changed in normal life! House prices are bonkers in Edinburgh (no surprise there) whilst Aberdeen has dropped due to oil prices falling. I'd be stalking RightMove & doing some serious schools research- there are good and bad schools everywhere, no idea if Australia is better or worse. Def more racism in Australia and a lot of problems with misogyny & climate change denial, it's hardly a perfect country- no where is. You just need to be sure you really will stay if you move back. I went from Sydney to Govan for work and it was pretty horrid (then I left Govan and life got a lot better!)

@Hopdathelf
I hadn't realised Scotland had declined so much. Worries me a lot about your schooling comment as my boys would go to a council school

I'm in Scotland, and I don't recognise anything @Hopdathelf has said

The schools here are fantastic. Both of my kids went to a normal school, both went on to Uni (free Uni here remember!!) and my son is now an Engineer and my daughter is a Teacher. I don't know anything about Victoria, so it's hard to comment on whether a move back would work for you. But please don't assume the schools are rubbish, because they absolutely are not!!

@merrymelody Sounds like I had much the same childhood as yours - we moved around Australia a lot until I was 9, then my father started working abroad and we then spent the next 6 years going back and forth between Australia and the UK...frankly, it was utter hell as a child. Just as we'd be getting settled in school, making friends, having pets...we'd be off again.

We finally ended up back in the UK when I was mid-teens. It's something I doubt I'll ever fully forgive my parents for, I was very happy in Australia before we left and I hated the UK. It took me a good decade to settle back here.

I'm sorry OP, I have some sympathy for your situation but I can't help but feel you are being selfish. Your husband and children are happy where they are. My younger brother ended up leaving school with no qualifications because our education had been so badly affected with all the moves. My parents ended up divorcing when I was in very early 20s and my mother, after vowing she never would, moved back to Australia and has lived there ever since...now going on 30 years.

It was my father that was the problem...after 10 years he decided he hated Australia. Truth was, he just didn't want the family life anymore, which was proved when he tried dumping us back in Oz, from the UK, when I was 11 (it didn't work). I just wish he'd been honest and left us where we were happy....as he ultimately did anyway.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but you seem to have a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality.

This. You wanted to move everyone away. You want to move everyone back. You stand a good chance of being just as miserable here.

With 3/4 of you being settled, I think you owe it to them to throw yourself into settling in more. Getting a permanent job, making friends; settling. A few things that you’ve said have alluded to never really feeling settled, and that’s common in those of us whose parents died young - and when I moved abroad, it was drilled into me that I needed to concentrate on putting down roots and not naval-gazing at what could be elsewhere, or I’d always feel unsettled and miserable, like extended culture shock.

It’s your call, but I’d be nervous of bringing your family home based on a feeling that you’ve got wrong at least once before... especially as your financial situation is so insecure. And the UKs isn’t exactly brilliantly.

It took me a while. I had to basically forget any possibility of going home and spend an extended period throwing myself into life... because otherwise it’s too easy to become an outsider, sir and watch the world go by, and fantasise about a better life elsewhere. In the end, it was revolutionary for me.

Your friendships are unlikely to be the same as you remember them.
People may have changed / moved on / got new social groups / new priorities since you were there.
I don't think you should move for your friends necessarily. Which is one of the key factors for you.

Scotland is very cold (especially this year!!)

My and DH were drinking cocktails in the garden last week - it was so warm we had to get the parasol out! But yeh, you might have to wait another 2 weeks for a hot day. But it's certainly not as cold as people make out!

Scotland is not what you remember it as - it is a much more insular and polarised place than even a decade ago

What does this even mean? I've been here for 18 years and have no idea what you mean?

On the plus side, Major banks are offering 5% deposit mortgages here at the moment (as instructed by Government) to get the housing market going again. Do you pay for University in Aus? Remember, it's free in Scotland, thus saving you about £45,000 per child.

So, your husband has a good job and is happy in his work, and your sons are happy and settled at their school, and you - the pipedreamer who wanted to move to Australia (based on a tv show??) - are the only one who wants to move again because you have a(nother) fantasy that your life will be better back in Scotland and your friendships will be exactly the same as they were five years ago, totally fulfilling, and absolutely worth uprooting your entire family for...

What fun if you blew your meagre savings on the move and found it also disappointing! Plus moving from a covid-safe country to the northern hemisphere during a pandemic! Bonkers.

I think you need to get a proper job and also work on your attitude first, and that may help with making new friends also.