To say that your if daughter tells you she feels the same as Elliot Page

[Notagain20]

... To please explore all the reasons why she might feel intensely uncomfortable with her growing female body, and not just assume she's transgender?

There's such an epidemic of sexual assault, harassment and sexualised bullying towards girls of all ages. Kids are exposed to violent porn from the moment they can use a phone. Eating disorders are exploding, further evidence that hatred of bodies is rife among young people. Adolescence has always been a storm of hormones and emotions, girls have always discovered that their bodies are treated as public property but that is so much worse now.

If your daughter hates her female body please don't assume she's transgender. She might be, but it's far more likely that she is having a normal response to a really sexist society. She needs your help to discover how women throughout time have helped each other navigate this experience, looked after each other, and organised together to change things.

I think the fear is driven by the desires of the teen - by the narrative they have heard and think they want.

I definitely agree. This is the problem with the 'discussion' on here.

This is a place where parents can, supposedly, come to get support. Parents of trans youths do not get that support unless they are vehemently against their child transitioning. So where can we go? I had Mermaids of all places recommended to me on here the other day.

All the best for you and your child too its really not easy.

@Butwasitherdriveway I just reread it, to see if I had inadvertently told people to tell their kids they are wrong, that they aren't trans, or to tell their kids anything actually. Am reassured to see that I didn't. I encouraged people to explore all the possible reasons their daughters might feel distressed about being in a female body. I didn't even say explore it with them. Could be by yourself.

If you read that as "tell your daughters you know better than them", I can't help that.

[quote Notagain20]@Butwasitherdriveway I just reread it, to see if I had inadvertently told people to tell their kids they are wrong, that they aren't trans, or to tell their kids anything actually. Am reassured to see that I didn't. I encouraged people to explore all the possible reasons their daughters might feel distressed about being in a female body. I didn't even say explore it with them. Could be by yourself.

If you read that as "tell your daughters you know better than them", I can't help that.[/quote]
But do you not think the tone smacks of that ?

It obviously doesn't to me, or I wouldn't have written it! But if it

Oops. If it does to you, then that's out of my hands. I'm going to put the kettle on.

The tone was a wee bit patronsising OP - the assumption that without your sage advice we'd all be marching our daughters to the hormone clinic. Maybe Elliot has done what they need to do to live their life in a way that feels right to them? Who knows?

Many previous posters' comments that no one was trans in their day so it must be a product of social infuence are an exact replica of what was said by many parents about homosexuality in the 80s. My uncle didn't want my cousin to go to University because they were full of lesbians and it might make her be one.

I am afraid many Mumsnet posters are so confident that they have all the answers to young people presenting as trans and are so sure it is just a phase to be discouraged. And maybe often it is, maybe sometimes it isn't. But anyone who thinks they have all the answers on how to bring up teens is someone who has closed their mind and is not worth listening to. It is easy to judge and emote from the sidelines, but real life can be hard, messy and complicated and I am only interested in the voices of those who are prepared to acknowledge they don't know it all. The OP was too full of certainty and 'this is what you must do' to sit comfortably with me.

@Thatisnotwhatisaid

My 9 year old often says she wishes she was a boy. It stems mostly from boys not having to have periods or breasts and the fact boys don’t seem to have silly arguments and fall out with each other constantly like girls do. She sadly does seem to have a lot of negativity towards her own sex despite me raising her with a feminist approach. We have plenty of books about amazing women, we talk about how great women are and she has a strong girls club T-shirt too but she sadly currently feels life would be easier as a boy. Tbh she’s probably right, men do have it easier in many ways...

Anyway, I would never jump straight into the ‘oh you must be transgender’ approach with a child. Children experiment with all manners of different identities over the years.

Please tell her that boys do have silly arguments and fall out.

My DS was very miserable for a while because he was treated badly by his 'friends'. It was only when he got in with a better bunch that school improved.
Just like happens to girls.

@HeadNorth Your uncle seems to have acknowledged the existence of lesbians but was prejudiced and didn't want you to become one. That's not the same as saying they didnt exist in the 1980s as they did.

The issue for me is simply aligning to a weird notion that biological status isn't real or worthwhile and if someone changes their name and hairstyle they suddenly become something else. And suddenly more comfortable- why is that? Can we not examine why? How anyone can believe it's intrinsic and not a socially generated phenomena is beyond me. I agree that teens must be able to come up with their own answers, though would also assume as adults parents have more experience and perspective to be able to guide them.

SvenandSven it sounds like you are taking a very measured approach. I wish you and your child a very calm journey through all of this.

The comparison with gay rights is misleading.

Acceptance of of same-sex sexual attraction is just a recognition that some people's bodies are just made that way, and there is a clear objective standard for what same-sex attraction is (the clue is in the term).

I don't see how the trans rights movement promotes acceptance of one's body at all. It seems to do the quite the opposite, especially where surgery is involved. And despite reading and reading about being transgender, the closest there is to any objective standard is far short of being biological, like, say, being lesbian. It's a strong feeling that you orient towards a gender stereotype that is not the one normally associated with your chromosones. We rarely set up objective standards on the basis of strong feelings.

A useful historical fact to illustrate the difference is this: in apartheid South Africa, some gay men underwent treatment with the aim to turn them into heterosexual women. Leaving aside the inhumanity of this, we may ask why it was easier to do this than remove their gay orientation.

Also, the comparison with gay rights doesn't take into account how society has changed, particularly since the 1980s. We are much more individualistic now, self-expression is now considered fundamental in a way that it simply wasn't then. Everyone has their own truth now and it's considered much less acceptable to critique it. It's naive to think this hasn't had an effect on gender orientation.

@SvenandSven you sound like you are approaching the situation in a kind and supportive way and I hope your child is happy whatever they decide.

It’s scary being a girl, I used to want to be a boy, I think it’s because of my ptsd & autism, I often thought I’d be better off as a man, even though I know boys are sadly also victims of sexual assault

This is a silly post. Of course parents would properly discuss an issue like this. It’s never going to be one conversation but many different ones over the years.

@HeadNorth thanks for such a sensible, balanced post. It’s a rare thing to see on these types of threads.

I agree, thanks for posting.

Agh, meant to put that to Tom. It's great to see some guys posting here too.

The reality is that your daughter will never change sex or be a boy/ man . Neither will Ellen/Elliott. Yes of course they can present as whatever they like, but after the clothes / hairstyle etc, it is all about how girls are treated, nd who wouldn’t want to identify out of that. Any medical intervention would cause problems over her lifetime and you should be absolutely trying to stop it, even if she were adult. In the meantime, opposition is the very stuff of adolescence so try to avoid fights,.

Wow what a wonderful insight there. Hope you feel better for posting that Thecatonthemat

its all about how girls are treated - this sentence shows exactly how little you know about it. As does calling Elliot Page 'Ellen'.

How the fuck do you think any of us can stop this, especially with an adult child?

Any medical intervention would cause problems over her lifetime and you should be absolutely trying to stop it, even if she were adult. In the meantime, opposition is the very stuff of adolescence so try to avoid fights.

Yeah, good luck in squaring that circle. Stop your trans child transitioning, even if they are an adult but avoid fights. So easy! Thank goodness you decided to share your amazing parental insights.

Have you thought about publishing a series of parenting guides?:
How to make your child study and get great exams results - while avoiding fights!
How to choose your child's life partner - while avoiding fights!
How to make your child take up the career and life path you have chosen for them - while avoiding fights!
Such expertise needs to be more widely shared.

The issue for me is simply aligning to a weird notion that biological status isn't real or worthwhile and if someone changes their name and hairstyle they suddenly become something else. And suddenly more comfortable- why is that? Can we not examine why?

I completely agree with this. At the very least we ought to be able to question. If someone has been an adult for a while, with some experience, knowledge and self reflection under their belt, then it seems more stable to make that choice. For a growing child, no. Experiment yes, but to take any permanent choices, no.

I remember working with adults a while ago in a healthcare setting who were undergoing gender reassignment. I think it was called that then. It was really interesting chatting to them. Most of them, as a condition of any surgery, had to have had quite extensive counseling and to have lived as the opposite sex full-time for a period of years (with cloths, hair, new name etc) before they would be considered for surgery.

The people I talked to them all thought that was a pretty good idea, and acknowledged that they themselves benefited from a long period of time to see how they felt, whether this was what they really wanted. Also even to get wife’s, husbands or family more used to it, and to test out really how far they wanted to go. Some said that they decided only to have some hormones and not extensive surgery, others decided that they needed a bit more time. None got hung up if people they knew took a while to remember to call them She rather than He. None I talked to were in any way wanting to push for recognition as biologically the other sex at all. As long as they were respect and accepted both by loved ones, and by society in jobs etc. Most I talked with at the time were extremely supportive of women’s rights and very sympathetic to safeguarding of young people and of girls.

I’m not sure what has happened recently I don’t recognise the debate at all. It all seems very pushy and aggressive.

I'd never heard of Elliott Page. I googled and found he is an extremely pretty, effeminate-looking young man.

If my daughter, at a young age, had told me she felt like him I would just accept what she said and see how it goes. Kids change so much over the years and at the moment, it's quite fashionable for school children to want to be the opposite sex. It usually doesn't last; if it does, all a parent can do is be unfazed and supportive.

My DC is now an adult and the conversation has changed. She uses both names, given female name and male adopted name. She has a boyfriend.
A year ago she asked for a sex change. sometimes she talks about being a man others about getting married and having babies. She was offered a consultation process which she has declined. still wears male clothes but the odd female item has appeared. She has mental health issues but not ASD.

But if the trans thing is about misogyny in society why do the vast majority of transgenders want to be female?

Transitioning is impossible though. You can change your body so it approximates the other sex, but you absolutely cannot become the opposite sex.

But if the trans thing is about misogyny in society why do the vast majority of transgenders want to be female?

They don’t anymore. Originally most children presenting to gender clinics were boys, most of whom, if supported, but not given hormones would end up happy in their male bodies. Many would be gay.

Currently, there’s been a dramatic reversal in the sex of the children presenting to gender clinics, with significantly more girls than boys. There’s been a 4000% increase in the number of girls identifying as trans.

Why is that, so you think?

In the middle aged population men seem more likely to transition than women, but middle aged men have different motivations than child related. I can’t say the acronym though, or those monitoring will have the post deleted