To say that your if daughter tells you she feels the same as Elliot Page

[Notagain20]

... To please explore all the reasons why she might feel intensely uncomfortable with her growing female body, and not just assume she's transgender?

There's such an epidemic of sexual assault, harassment and sexualised bullying towards girls of all ages. Kids are exposed to violent porn from the moment they can use a phone. Eating disorders are exploding, further evidence that hatred of bodies is rife among young people. Adolescence has always been a storm of hormones and emotions, girls have always discovered that their bodies are treated as public property but that is so much worse now.

If your daughter hates her female body please don't assume she's transgender. She might be, but it's far more likely that she is having a normal response to a really sexist society. She needs your help to discover how women throughout time have helped each other navigate this experience, looked after each other, and organised together to change things.

[quote IheartJKR]@puppychaos

I’m glad you had support from your mum [/quote]
Thank you. Having someone happily use my chosen name and he/him pronouns helped me realise that it wasn't for me. I would still be stuck in utter turmoil if I hadn't have had that support - that's why it's important to support children who do have feelings around being transgender: because it truly gives them the space to figure it out.

@puppychaos

Oh I don't know. I came out as a trans man when I was 15. It was right for me at the time and being validated by my mum did help a whole lot in at least giving me the space to explore that posibility.

I'm not a trans man now, several years later. I'm non binary but identify more with womanhood in a political sense than I do with manhood, and don't (and never have) taken blockers or T. But I do also think I would still be quite miserable today if I wasn't given the option to explore being a trans man. It helped me understand my gender identity and sexuality on a level that I wouldn't have been able to do, otherwise.

Thats quite sweet. I wonder what your mum really thought about it. I know people who have been quite supportive and validated their kids identity yet it was a strategy to keep a positive relationship with their child - ie they didnt actually believe it. Another friend believes that boy or girl is actually a feeling for real, so there is no cognitive disonnance there. I guess it depends on what gender means to them too, and their own experience with identity

[quote Brainwave89]@JellySlice. Sorry but I do not agree. Gender dysmorphia is a well diagnosed condition. There will be some girls and boys who will wish to transition and will need support in doing so. I agree there may be other things that are contributing to a desire to be different and careful consideration is required, but some people genuinely need to transition.[/quote]
Doesn't change anything, though. None of the other dysmorphias are treated by causing permanent harm to the patient's body, not by obliging society to affirm their distorted self-image.

There is growing evidence that physical transition rarely leads to long-term improvement in the person's mental health, and that the happiest transitions are those well recognise that they remain the sex they were observed to be at birth and have simply modified their bodies to more closely resemble the sex they wish they were.

To treat people with respect and compassion you have to be honest and realistic. Lies and pretence do not help in the long run. It is unkind to lie and pretend something that can never come true

@Branleuse in the case of my mum she really did wholeheartedly support me. She's bisexual and has lots of transgender friends and saw it as her responsibility to support me. She supported me just as much when I decided that I wasn't a man and came out (again) as a lesbian, but she really didn't do it to keep me in her good books!

@brainwave89

‘Gender dysmorphia is a well diagnosed condition’

All this means is that some people experience gender dysmorphia and their symptoms have been described. Psychiatry is very different from the rest of medicine. The existence of a recognised diagnosis doesn’t mean anything is understood about the aetiology of the condition, or that there is an effective treatment.

Even in adults there is no strong evidence that medical and surgical transition is the best way to treat gender dysphoria.

The whole trans thing has been blown out of proportion by people with an interest in keeping people on drugs or prepubescent. I’d tell her to start loving herself and not worry about anything else. Good self image is important as today’s society doesn’t help.

@BanginChoons

If someone tells you who they are, maybe you should believe them.

Have you ever cared for a teenager? Do you know how being a teenager in this toxic, sexist, lesbophobic society affects girls?

Yours is a trite, stupid, sloganeering response to a very pressing, uncomfortable, distressing issue.

@puppychaos

Although i think thats great for you as a child, I worry about the bigger picture about what it means for other kids and safeguarding etc rather than the individual person, and what it means later down the line for other issues. While i cant see a problem with you as an individual trying out and exploring identities, i cant help but worry that this would mean boys being allowed to identify into girls spaces and what this would mean for their safety amd fairness
One persons rights end where another persons start. I wish there was a better answer, as obviously id want you to be happy, but if a policy change that helped you, put others in danger, then theres a conflict

Have you ever cared for a teenager? Do you know how being a teenager in this toxic, sexist, lesbophobic society affects girls?

Yes, I have a teen who identifies as trans.

I agree and it's not about dismissing her feelings, but about offering different ways of looking at what she's feeling. My DD went through a period of thinking she had gender dysphoria, she looked very much like a boy for a year or two, wore boys clothes, had a very short haircut, and was often mistaken for a boy. Now 2 years on and she's the most feminine girl you could imagine with long hair and a penchant for flicky eye liner. I think a lot of it was experimentation, lack of confidence, and uncertainty about identity. I don't think any of it was because she is trans. Of course it might have been, so I had to allow that possibility too.

@puppychaos thank you for sharing. It's really useful to have a perspective on this from someone with a genuine lived experience.

*I thought it was quite normal to hate your body growing up.^

Yeah, why wouldn’t you? When all you’ve known is being a child and being perfect the way you are! Getting taller is the only attractive advantage!

I wish there was more space for parents with teens going through this to be able to find common ground without either having to agree with and validate it all, or dismiss and talk them round.
The reality is often far more nuanced and somewhere in the middle

I'm non binary but identify more with womanhood in a political sense than I do with manhood, and don't (and never have) taken blockers or T. But I do also think I would still be quite miserable today if I wasn't given the option to explore being a trans man. It helped me understand my gender identity and sexuality on a level that I wouldn't have been able to do, otherwise.

That seems like an eminently sensible and well considered approach - nothing medical which ensured you have no long term consequences of your younger gender exploration. I'm glad it helped.

It's funny how middle aged men are allowed, encouraged even, to explore their gender identity without any need for medicalisation, but teen girls in particular are immediately encouraged to go down the medical route.

Psychiatric illness is cultural. People who experience mental distress express it in culturally available ways.

Yes of course. I've never really thought about it that way but yes, it's blindingly obvious isn't it?

[quote BanginChoons]@puppychaos thank you for sharing. It's really useful to have a perspective on this from someone with a genuine lived experience.[/quote]
It's certainly rare on these threads! It's not worth the hassle so I generally post elsewhere, but sometimes it can be useful.

Completely agree with the OP.

Agree OP.

Please also explore whether your daughter has been abused or experienced any trauma and if so how she has been supported to deal with this.

Also consider if she may have autism.

And whether she may be being bullied at school.

Also please start intensively monitoring internet usage.

[quote terfinginthevoid]@Bangingchoons
“There was a time when being gay was considered a mental illness”.

This equating being transgender with being gay has done so much damage.

Being gay is similar to being gender non conforming. Being a very masculine girl, or a very feminine boy- not accepted by some people (the same people who would be homophobic), but not a mental illness. Liking the clothes/ activities/hairstyles stereotypically associated with the other sex - not a mental illness. Wishing you had been born the other sex, but accepting reality - not a mental illness.

Believing that your ‘real self’ actually is the other sex, and being so distressed by your actual body that you want dangerous medical and surgical treatment to cosmetically modify it to resemble the other sex - definitely a mental illness.[/quote]
Yes.

I also used to think I might be a boy - or at least have a boy brain, right up until I was around 36ish, even after having given birth after a surge of maternalism kicked in.
I never 'identified' with the adolescent girls - I wasnt interested in the things they talked about and their social interactions left me blindsided. Boys were straightforward.
And They liked cool stuff that I liked - maths, science, computers.
I read books like 'men are from Mars;' and definately felt that I must have a masculine brain.
At that point I didnt realise that a feminine or masculine brain was impossible - that there was no such thing, and that I was attributing sex stereotypes and socialisation to some kind of inner sense of gender.
Also fortunately there was no gender idiology taught at school, or I definately would have dropped myself into that box, especially if would have taken me from socially awkward, definately not cool outsider to elevated person celebrated and possibly having assemblies arranged around my brave decision. And that would have meant I probably wouldnt have had my beautiful children.

But actually, what turned out to be the issue was that A- I was autistic, and B- I was scared and frightened by sexuality and expectations and the 'how to' of having a relationship.

there are many reasons for opting out of 'femininity'

true gender dysphoria is very rare. Body dysphoria not so much. Hating the expectation of being sexually available in a porn soaked culture is even more common, hiding your sexuality as a lesbian, pretty common. Hiding your sexuality because of abuse- sadly very common. Wishing to harm your body is self harm, and a common expression amongst teenage girls/young women in all its forms

Great to see so many thoughtful and reflective posts about this issue. Surely society must eventually join up the dots between the outpouring of revelations about systematic abuse / objectification of girls and women (from www.everyonesinvited.uk/ to the awful revelations about Noel Clarke) ?
We are allowing generations of girls to believe that they can identify their way out of crap like this and instead of parents getting thoughtful support to explore this with their children, they are gaslighted and told they're bigots if they don't immediately affirm them.
When those children who have accessed drugs and surgery (online or elsewhere) realise as they reach adulthood that this has negatively impacted on their fertility, their sex lives and their future health they will be devastated - and will ask why they weren't protected from their adolescent demands.
We must have these difficult discussions and ensure that children don't make life altering decisions until they are fully old enough to comprehend and consent.

I wish there was more space for parents with teens going through this to be able to find common ground without either having to agree with and validate it all, or dismiss and talk them round.
The reality is often far more nuanced and somewhere in the middle

Yes, I agree

@BanginChoons

Have you ever cared for a teenager? Do you know how being a teenager in this toxic, sexist, lesbophobic society affects girls?

Yes, I have a teen who identifies as trans.

As do many of us.

There's a difference between having a very strong opinion on the whole trans ideology, and how we talk to our teens.

@terfinginthevoid

The increasingly widespread belief that there is such a thing as ‘being genuinely trans’ is a major part of the problem. No one is ‘genuinely trans’, in the sense that no one is born in the wrong body.

Psychiatric illness is cultural. People who experience mental distress express it in culturally available ways. Once it was ‘believing you are made of glass’.

Young people in psychological distress can currently adopt ‘being trans’ as a culturally approved explanation and expression of their pain. And rather than receive appropriate psychological therapy to explore what is really going on, misguided psychologists and doctors are giving them hormones and surgery.

Spot on.

But actually, what turned out to be the issue was that A- I was autistic, and B- I was scared and frightened by sexuality and expectations and the 'how to' of having a relationship.

As is very likely with mine.