To say that your if daughter tells you she feels the same as Elliot Page

[Notagain20]

... To please explore all the reasons why she might feel intensely uncomfortable with her growing female body, and not just assume she's transgender?

There's such an epidemic of sexual assault, harassment and sexualised bullying towards girls of all ages. Kids are exposed to violent porn from the moment they can use a phone. Eating disorders are exploding, further evidence that hatred of bodies is rife among young people. Adolescence has always been a storm of hormones and emotions, girls have always discovered that their bodies are treated as public property but that is so much worse now.

If your daughter hates her female body please don't assume she's transgender. She might be, but it's far more likely that she is having a normal response to a really sexist society. She needs your help to discover how women throughout time have helped each other navigate this experience, looked after each other, and organised together to change things.

@Butwasitherdriveway Respecting of views I get, but we aren't talking that, we are talking about unquestioning medicalisation and surgery if young people feel uncomfortable in their own skin. This isn't something that's easy to accept.

I was a teenager in the 90s. We didn't have to define our pronouns, we didn't have to tell people whether we were cis or trans, we didn't seriously entertain the idea of actually being the opposite gender. I don't know of any child from school that has now grown up and actually chosen to be the opposite gender.

So either teenagers have changed or society has.

[quote Yorkshirelass04]@Butwasitherdriveway Respecting of views I get, but we aren't talking that, we are talking about unquestioning medicalisation and surgery if young people feel uncomfortable in their own skin. This isn't something that's easy to accept.

I was a teenager in the 90s. We didn't have to define our pronouns, we didn't have to tell people whether we were cis or trans, we didn't seriously entertain the idea of actually being the opposite gender. I don't know of any child from school that has now grown up and actually chosen to be the opposite gender.

So either teenagers have changed or society has. [/quote]
Both.

In the same way my father is sure there waa no gay men in his school, that there are no gay men in the premier League.

@Butwasitherdriveway I think it's a mistake to think that being gay is the same as the transgender movement. We are not talking about sexual attraction but something really more fundamental and risky and experimental. And not to mention all sort of contradictory in a purely logical sense.

If teenagers have changed then what has brought on this sudden shift in thinking? Or are you saying that some teenagers always felt the need to be the opposite gender and are only now getting the chance?

It’s self indulgent to tell teenagers that every bit of emotional and mental discomfort they have must be medicalised. It’s self indulgent for some trans adults to project their feelings onto young children, encouraging them to pursue born in the wrong body myths, it’s self indulgent to expect everyone to compelled speech regarding pronouns and it’s incredibly self indulgent to threaten everyone who disagrees with this ideology as being hateful.

I don't know about self indulgent but it would be pretty foolish to tell a teenager that "we've all been through it" in the dismissive way you're implying, @Butwasitherdriveway. If you want a dialogue you don't tell someone you already know exactly what they're experiencing! You listen, you reflect, you make space, you encourage consideration of all sorts of factors. If you think the options are either 1) unquestioningly accept everything a young person wants to do
or 2) tell them you know everything about their experience and have lived it already and know better than them
then I think you're sort of missing the point of parenting

[quote Yorkshirelass04]@Butwasitherdriveway I think it's a mistake to think that being gay is the same as the transgender movement. We are not talking about sexual attraction but something really more fundamental and risky and experimental. And not to mention all sort of contradictory in a purely logical sense.

If teenagers have changed then what has brought on this sudden shift in thinking? Or are you saying that some teenagers always felt the need to be the opposite gender and are only now getting the chance? [/quote]
Yes, that is what I am saying.

@Notagain20

I don't know about self indulgent but it would be pretty foolish to tell a teenager that "we've all been through it" in the dismissive way you're implying, *@Butwasitherdriveway*. If you want a dialogue you don't tell someone you already know exactly what they're experiencing! You listen, you reflect, you make space, you encourage consideration of all sorts of factors. If you think the options are either 1) unquestioningly accept everything a young person wants to do or 2) tell them you know everything about their experience and have lived it already and know better than them then I think you're sort of missing the point of parenting

But that's what you wrote in your OP, really isn't it...

Some of us HAVE been through it, for utter fuck's sake.

@Wandawomble

It’s self indulgent to tell teenagers that every bit of emotional and mental discomfort they have must be medicalised. It’s self indulgent for some trans adults to project their feelings onto young children, encouraging them to pursue born in the wrong body myths, it’s self indulgent to expect everyone to compelled speech regarding pronouns and it’s incredibly self indulgent to threaten everyone who disagrees with this ideology as being hateful.

Erm...

What have trans adults got to do with it?

@Butwasitherdriveway Did you think my OP was a script to be read out to someone's daughter?

[quote Notagain20]@Butwasitherdriveway Did you think my OP was a script to be read out to someone's daughter?[/quote]
No, but it implies exactly what I said .which is that it is self indulgent to compare trans to what you might have felt in a sexist society. Because it is.

And if I get that message, people can't be surprised when their potentially trans teen@# pointed out by PP, doesn't feel listened to.

K feel like time and time again on these threads people feel these youngsters just need to realise how they feel is the result of the constraints of a sexist society and seem to think this epiphany solves all.

But people who are not trans cannot understand being trans.

I don't think many people on mn would think that young people are going to have an epiphany as a result of their parents imparting great wisdom from above! I don't think that anyone who has met a teenager thinks that's going to be a success. Dysphoria is complex, painful, multilayered.

It would help me to know what your definition of "being trans" is, @Butwasitherdriveway. Is it about dysphoria or about having a gendered soul/spirit?

It's interesting that this is a debate about teens really.

Why not all adults? Is there something uniquely confusing and uncomfortable about being a teenager? Because I think there is. I don't see there are the same amount of fully grown adults thinking 'oh I wish I'd been able to be trans in my teenage years because I'm now so uncomfortable being a man / woman.' There may be some, but not the same number. Which indicates to me it's potentially a phase some go through.

I get very confused by these threads.

Trans women are the hot topic on FWR, everything transwomen do is scrutinised and picked apart.

Then we talk about teens and its all about trans boys and society influencing them and how they simply hate their growing bodies. The only talk about trans girls is along the lines of "they better not do/go to X Y or Z"

Now one of the very few times a trans man is being discussed its about him looking fragile and sad. (although he's not long been taking testosterone and he is going through a divorce which would contribute to both of those things, but let's just blame it on being trans, shall we). That said I do realise there were threads about people disappointed that he wanted to do whats right for him and his life, and people felt really sad he is no longer a lesbian. Poor guy should have stayed unhappy so he represents a group of people who now dislike him and refuse to respect him.

Transwomen = bad.

Transboys = deluded and just need a bit of feminism in their lives.

Transmen = fragile.

Transgender people really haven't got a lot going for them according to lots on MN really. Its almost like they are being stereotyped on here.

I'm also not sure what qualifies you to tell people how to talk to their trans teens? Its bloody hard and very complicated, and its not as easy as some on this thread seem to think. Its a difficult balancing act to get the right help for your individual child, and I think parents are best placed to decide the help their kid needs. Yet unqualified people with an agenda keep helpfully offering advice about a situation they aren't in based on their belief of what they would do. In reality, unless you've been where me, and many other parents, are, you really haven't got a clue.

Agree that it's hard for non parents to understand, and I am in that camp.

But surely, first trying to get teens to understand where their feelings might have come from is easier than contemplating them having either mastectomy or being castrated? It must be the last resort surely to just 'accept' all that's being said.

But surely, first trying to get teens to understand where their feelings might have come from is easier than contemplating them having either mastectomy or being castrated?

Do you really think parents do this.

"Hey mum I’ve decided I'm coming out as trans today"

"Oh cool honey, let's get you booked in for lifelong drugs and major surgery, I'll just call and get you popped on the waiting list for next week"

I have yet to meet a parent who starts highfiving everyone and skips to the doctor because they are just so excited their kid is so unhappy that they feel that hormones and surgery is the way to go.

Its a really difficult balancing act, its difficult, and complex and bloody hard. Even as a parent who fully accepts my child, it still breaks my heart they will have to go through so much to be happy within themselves. I have done the right thing for my child every step of the way throughout this, while learning myself too, but others go a different way, thats the right thing for their kid based on their circumstances.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I get very confused by these threads.

Trans women are the hot topic on FWR, everything transwomen do is scrutinised and picked apart.

Then we talk about teens and its all about trans boys and society influencing them and how they simply hate their growing bodies. The only talk about trans girls is along the lines of "they better not do/go to X Y or Z"

Now one of the very few times a trans man is being discussed its about him looking fragile and sad. (although he's not long been taking testosterone and he is going through a divorce which would contribute to both of those things, but let's just blame it on being trans, shall we). That said I do realise there were threads about people disappointed that he wanted to do whats right for him and his life, and people felt really sad he is no longer a lesbian. Poor guy should have stayed unhappy so he represents a group of people who now dislike him and refuse to respect him.

Transwomen = bad.

Transboys = deluded and just need a bit of feminism in their lives.

Transmen = fragile.

Transgender people really haven't got a lot going for them according to lots on MN really. Its almost like they are being stereotyped on here.

I'm also not sure what qualifies you to tell people how to talk to their trans teens? Its bloody hard and very complicated, and its not as easy as some on this thread seem to think. Its a difficult balancing act to get the right help for your individual child, and I think parents are best placed to decide the help their kid needs. Yet unqualified people with an agenda keep helpfully offering advice about a situation they aren't in based on their belief of what they would do. In reality, unless you've been where me, and many other parents, are, you really haven't got a clue.

I agree that it's very difficult, and I have been in a similar position and am not unqualified.

I would also gently add that the very essence of mn chat is a group of people discussing things, many of which they are entirely "unqualified" to speak about. And that is the same for most of the internet.

And that is the way in which most young people get a huge amount of information. Including information about what their feelings about their developing bodies "means". It's a worry.

@Notagain20

I don't think many people on mn would think that young people are going to have an epiphany as a result of their parents imparting great wisdom from above! I don't think that anyone who has met a teenager thinks that's going to be a success. Dysphoria is complex, painful, multilayered.

But that's what your bloody OP suggests!

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult no I don't think parents do what you have described.

But you do occasionally see gender reveal posts at a very young age where the parents seem very happy about the kids choice and not conflicted at all. Only time will tell if it was the right treatment for them.

@Yorkshirelass04

Agree that it's hard for non parents to understand, and I am in that camp.

But surely, first trying to get teens to understand where their feelings might have come from is easier than contemplating them having either mastectomy or being castrated? It must be the last resort surely to just 'accept' all that's being said.

Given that only 3 percent have surgery, yes.

The problem with the discussions about transgender people on here is that they only ever go one way.

People who haven't been in the situation saying "this is what I would do", everyone else agreeing, then people who have been/are going through it being told the way they did things is completely wrong.

A whole bunch of people discussing what they think they may possibly do, and what those of us who are going through should do, just makes those who don't know give themselves a self congratulatory pat on the back, and those of us who do know feel like we cannot talk about what we actually go through at all because we very often get completely shut down on threads.

But you do occasionally see gender reveal posts at a very young age where the parents seem very happy about the kids choice and not conflicted at all. Only time will tell if it was the right treatment for them.

I agree, and you will see many people just telling that person they are a dick, then posters like me, and others in this situation get drowned out.

I am on those threads trying to talk to the parent finding out whats going on, and telling them what I did and the way I went about things (child is now an adult and starting the process next year, after a over a decade of watchful waiting). They very often disappear because it turns into a really hateful thread full of name calling. They write MN off as transhobic. I can't see how that helps anyone.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult yes, I agree with a lot of what you've posted.

It's rare for a nuanced discussion to be heard, and for parents in this position it is even harder to find a space to discuss the issues without feeling condemned by either side.

And like you, whilst I've yet to meet a parent "who starts highfiving everyone and skips to the doctor" I think the fear is driven by the desires of the teen - by the narrative they have heard and think they want. Without a doubt we should respect a teen's opinion, but as a parent doing their best it would be a failure of care to encourage a teen along a transitioning path without questioning any of it.

I too hope to the best for my child, whichever direction that may take. This is not an easy path for any of us (parent or child)

We are going through this now. Dd has changed their name to a boy version, short hair wants to be addressed as he, him his or non binary. School is aware and are using the him, he etc.
We are using non binary with agreement and we do use the preferred name.

We have had countless conversations and they know we support them. We have explored clothing and found women's fits better but as they are now in adult sizes you can get more range in clothes no more of the girly teen clothing. So all good there.

Hair has gone from long to short styles I actually prefer the shorter styles just suits them more.

We have had lengthy conversations about puberty blockers etc and they know in no uncertain terms a medical route is not going to happen I can't stand by and let them go medical at the age of 13. We are aware of the long waiting times we researched it all together.
As a parent who wants the best for them I can't encourage anything that could be harmful or irreversible. It's not prejudice or anti trans just parents setting safe boundaries to enable safe exploration.

Although they know we will support them if later in life if it's a route they want to take.

I will just say it was a huge shock when they spoke to me about it. I'm unsure whether this is a puberty not happy with the changes or actually trans. I know only time will tell and I will do everything I can to support them whichever way this turns out to be.