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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say that your if daughter tells you she feels the same as Elliot Page

207 replies

Notagain20 · 01/05/2021 08:46

... To please explore all the reasons why she might feel intensely uncomfortable with her growing female body, and not just assume she's transgender?

There's such an epidemic of sexual assault, harassment and sexualised bullying towards girls of all ages. Kids are exposed to violent porn from the moment they can use a phone. Eating disorders are exploding, further evidence that hatred of bodies is rife among young people. Adolescence has always been a storm of hormones and emotions, girls have always discovered that their bodies are treated as public property but that is so much worse now.

If your daughter hates her female body please don't assume she's transgender. She might be, but it's far more likely that she is having a normal response to a really sexist society. She needs your help to discover how women throughout time have helped each other navigate this experience, looked after each other, and organised together to change things.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 01/05/2021 12:35

Just watching this clip.

My heart aches for Elliott. This is not someone who looks well and happy. (CW - discussion of suicide, inc some pretty hyperbolic claims). I'm really sorry for the terrible pain Elliott seems to have undergone and be undergoing.

www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/story/elliot-page-says-top-surgery-was-lifesaving/vp-BB1geuMS

Thatswatshesaid · 01/05/2021 12:43

Elliott is 34 he’s not a teenager. If this is what he feels will help him to feel happier then, although it’s sad that it’s come to this, i support him.

BiBabbles · 01/05/2021 12:50

Not unreasonable at all, though I'm torn between feeling like parents are often not the best person to help explore complicated feelings (even well-intended parents) and concerns about the lack of resources outside of the home with how overstretched mental health services and the difficulty in finding the right other people to help. It's rough for too many children, girls particularly in this regard.

If someone tells you who they are, maybe you should believe them.

I started talking about sex changes when I was about 7. When I was 9, I would have said I am someone who shouldn't have been born (I mean, if we view that women who do not want children shouldn't have them, then it's still objectively true, but I had more emotions attached to it back then).

I was of course a child who didn't have the language or other skills to discuss trauma and emotions, I was just using what media representations and other rhetoric I had been exposed to - the joys of being raised on soap operas, it was mostly weird shite. I was very lucky to get schools access to mental health care - I saw the school psych in elementary, had group therapy in middle school, and a mix in the higher grades.

We never talked about 'who I was' - I was a child, my identity was continuously in flux and impacted by those around me (as is also true of adults to a lesser extent). We talked about coping mechanisms, making choices on our thoughts, how people aren't really all that great at knowing what causes or even identifying emotions all the time and how to practice that & understand that just like our other senses, our emotions send messages but aren't always reliable.

I find the individualistic identity centered way culture is going on how to view people doesn't do much good and just because someone says they feel a certain way doesn't mean it automatically leads to a certain identity as defined by the culture the person happens to have been born in. My feeling threatened by being perceived as female doesn't mean anything about who I innately am.

You cant just ban the internet with teenagers. They have to learn to navigate it. You can put parental controls to stop them having unfiltered access to porn and 18+ sites, but you cant stop them talking about things.

Banning would likely be difficult, but parents can 'intensively monitor' it within their homes, especially for younger teenagers.

After many long conversations about issues my then-13 year old DS1 was having online, he asked us to remove his phone's web browser he found even parentally blocked internet access too much and we listened. He spent a few years only working on computers at home on a computer attached to our TV where everyone could see it. He was much happier and was perfectly able to learn how to navigate it doing that way. It's not really that hard to do, especially these days, and a bit of extra maturity really helped him so now he manages fine.

I had pretty much free range internet usage from an early age, joys of being a late 80s kid with a dad working in tech where a home computer with internet was a perk of the job, and 'they have to learn to navigate it' was my parents attitude that fucked us all up and led to my brother ending up arrested and expelled and barred from every school in the county. Even on non-18+ sites, you can talk about illegal shite that has repercussions.

I can't stop them discussing anything, but my children - particularly my sons - are in high risk demographics for radicalisation in a city which has known problems with it so yeah I restrict and monitor internet usage. There are so many other identity-focused groups out there other than gender-based that just love teenagers, inexperienced by definition, looking for community, understanding, and an explanation for their feelings.

AvocadoBathroom · 01/05/2021 12:57

@HeadNorth

Bear in mind, Elliot is an adult in their 30s, so you cannot dismiss their feelings as pubertal angst. I think most/all parents would want their child to take their time and proceed with caution, but once they are 18 they are adults and can make their own decisions. It is then up to you, as a parent, to make peace with those decisions if you want to maintain a loving relationship with your child. If your hatred of trans is stronger than your love for your child, that is a choice for you to live with.
"Hatred of trans" is spectacularly missing the point and deliberately using inflammatory language. Very few mothers talking about this have any kind of hatred for trans people. Having concern about unnecessary mastectomies and a lifetime of medical intervention for an otherwise healthy bodied female isn't having a "hatred of trans" - what a ridiculous assertion! Having concern about your daughter's body - and about what may happen if your child feels after the surgery that they regret their decision - is a normal reaction to something that is a very extreme medical pathway. If a child is experiencing body dysmorphia - would be amputated healthy body parts? We wouldn't! What is the difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysmorphia?

You do make the point that Page is an adult - however that adult is on national television telling people that children will DIE if they don't get to play sports which is a ridiculous assertion. That adult is directly influencing young people. That adult is a role model for young girls.

Telling mothers who are concerned about their daughter's mental health and their daughters making irreversible decisions that will affect their healthy bodies that they "hate trans" is a reactionary and incoherent tactic.

oxalisRed · 01/05/2021 12:57

@HeadNorth
If your hatred of trans is stronger than your love for your child, that is a choice for you to live with.

It's not about "hating trans" at all. It's about one's child's unhappiness and distress, it's about helping your child to accept who they are without irreversible and life long damage. Being transgender is just one of many options, it's not necessarily The Answer but in today's cultural climate our youngsters are conditioned into believing it is the only option.

Unfortunately those who think NHS waiting lists will hold back determined teens - there are (IMHO) unethical websites offering minimal consultation and easy access to medication if you pay £££. Which makes it more difficult for some parents to delay their teens from making irreversible physical choices, especially when we are fed the "accept them without question or they will kill themselves" line.

I'm surprised and grateful that this thread has happened, glad to see a mostly nuanced discussion from many perspectives.

Having read the article, I wish EP peace with themselves.

ViciousJackdaw · 01/05/2021 13:07

I thought I was trans when I was 16-17. I ended up telling my Sociology tutor during a 121 and he was so, so lovely. He gave me a couple of books to read, introductions to feminist theory and they were a revelation! Helped me understand that it wasn't me who was 'wrong', it was society.

Whilst I would never simply dismiss a teen who felt they were trans, it is always worth discussing society's expectations of sex/gender.

HeadNorth · 01/05/2021 13:16

[quote oxalisRed]@HeadNorth
If your hatred of trans is stronger than your love for your child, that is a choice for you to live with.

It's not about "hating trans" at all. It's about one's child's unhappiness and distress, it's about helping your child to accept who they are without irreversible and life long damage. Being transgender is just one of many options, it's not necessarily The Answer but in today's cultural climate our youngsters are conditioned into believing it is the only option.

Unfortunately those who think NHS waiting lists will hold back determined teens - there are (IMHO) unethical websites offering minimal consultation and easy access to medication if you pay £££. Which makes it more difficult for some parents to delay their teens from making irreversible physical choices, especially when we are fed the "accept them without question or they will kill themselves" line.

I'm surprised and grateful that this thread has happened, glad to see a mostly nuanced discussion from many perspectives.

Having read the article, I wish EP peace with themselves.[/quote]
There is a lot of trans hatred on Mumsnet. A lot. It is basically the engine that fuels the FWR board (as Meghan hatred fuels the Royal Family board). Elliot is an adult who has made adult choices that he has assessdd are essential to him to live and funtion. The fact he is not clicking his heels and singing 'Zippedy Doo Dah' does not mean his choices are wrong, or invalid.

Trans people exist and they all have parents. So some parents are just going to have to learm to live with and accept their child is trans. The predominant Mumsnet message is children are wrong to say they are trans and can always be talked out of it for their own good. I am just saying, not necessarily. We have to accept the existance of trans people as entitled to try and live their life in the way that seems right for them, they same as all of us.

Judging Elliot for being too pale, or too thin, or not happy enough seems, to me, to be spectacularly missing the point.

Tibtom · 01/05/2021 13:19

Claiming discussion is hatred is a common tactic used to silence debate.

Tibtom · 01/05/2021 13:27

Thing put forward as hatred of trans people:

Safeguarding
Evidence based medicine
Recognising the importance of sex in oppressing women and girls
International Women's Day
Woman's rights
A child's ability to consent
Acknowledging the existance of detransitioners
Saying a woman's who has been brutally gang raped should be allowed to chose the sex of their forensic examiner
The Equality Act 2010
Female sports

Notagain20 · 01/05/2021 13:28

Happily I've not noticed anyone on this thread being hateful towards anyone, or saying they would tell a child questioning their gender that they are plain wrong or refuse to accept them. But lots of willingness to explore the issues involved in growing up female, which sounds to me like good parenting ❤️ and concern about unquestioned celebrity endorsement of radical medical treatment. Great to be able to discuss all this, from all perspectives.

OP posts:
HeadNorth · 01/05/2021 13:29

Claiming discussion is hatred is a common tactic used to silence debate.

Who is 'silencing debate'? What are you actually talking about? Mumsnet seems overwhelmingly negative about the existance of trans people, I am providing a counter narrative that they exist and it is not necessarily the worst thing in the world. Providing a counter view is the very opposite of silencing debate - unless you have a very different definition of debate, which is basically everyone reinforcing each others views in an echo chamber.

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 01/05/2021 13:29

@HeadNorth

Bear in mind, Elliot is an adult in their 30s, so you cannot dismiss their feelings as pubertal angst. I think most/all parents would want their child to take their time and proceed with caution, but once they are 18 they are adults and can make their own decisions. It is then up to you, as a parent, to make peace with those decisions if you want to maintain a loving relationship with your child. If your hatred of trans is stronger than your love for your child, that is a choice for you to live with.
Elliot also said that if trans kids can't play sports with the opposite sex 'children will die'. Elliot is talking specifically about children there, and is basically saying that the only options are complete affirmation from everyone, even if it affects others negatively, or suicide.

It's absolutely horrendous.

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 01/05/2021 13:32

A wider discussion about the society in which young girls are being raised, and how that might have an effect on their sense of identity and how they see their bodies is not 'hatred' FFS.

unwuthering · 01/05/2021 13:32

In years to come we will look back on this time with shame.

Yep, but right now it is a Thought Crime to even question it.

ArabellaScott · 01/05/2021 13:33

Elliott is entitled to do whatever Elliot pleases.

What is not okay is telling parents that if children aren't given access to surgery it's life threatening.

This is hyperbole, it's not supported by the evidence, and I would go so far as to say it's dangerous.

ArabellaScott · 01/05/2021 13:35

Yes, evidence of 'hatred' would good. Bearing in mind this doesn't just mean 'disagreement'. Show any on this thread, for example?

Angelil · 01/05/2021 13:37

@HeadNorth 18 is still very young though - and the brain has not finished developing until age 25.
Young people need to be given more time to feel comfortable in their own skin and to discover what that is - not to rush into surgery, hormonal treatments just because at 18 they're legally adults.
Friends of mine who couldn't accept, for example, their homosexuality found that when they did, a lot of their mental health issues went away (e.g. night terrors/hallucinations, chronic depression inc. suicide attempts etc). Young people need to be given the chance to work it out for themselves and that means being out of their teens before making any major decisions about their bodies. Name changes, what you wear, how you do your hair etc...all reversible. Mastectomies, puberty blockers...very much the opposite.

Notagain20 · 01/05/2021 13:37

The mention of suicide in that interview is so irresponsible. I just really hope parents don't get so scared by this sort of claim that they feel unable to challenge anything their child does

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oxalisRed · 01/05/2021 13:37

@HeadNorth
There is a lot of trans hatred on Mumsnet. A lot. It is basically the engine that fuels the FWR board

I disagree. Practically every thread I've ever seen on FWR is centred on women's rights, about protecting the few rights women have carved out for themselves in this society over the last century, about ensuring the safety of women and children.

That may seem like transphobia when transgender activists argue for access or changes that impinges women's safety. That is all. I see no "hatred of trans" (which should of course be reported to MNHQ) just defense of women.

Defending women is so so so unpopular, we are so so overlooked and disregarded - to the extent that many of us have in our past wished to opt out of being a woman. As already expressed by so many posters in this and other threads, our (older) generation experienced this when transitioning was not the automatic Answer and we grew up to accept ourselves. Now our kids are actively encouraged to believe transitioning is The Answer and anyone who disagrees (especially we pesky women) are slurred and threatened.

Trans people exist and they all have parents..... The predominant Mumsnet message is children are wrong to say they are trans and can always be talked out of it for their own good. I am just saying, not necessarily

I have yet to come across any poster on MN saying they deny the existence of transgender people, or that transgender people shouldn't exist. But obviously as a parenting board, we tend to be cautious about treatment that our kids may receive which may have long term ill effects - not always saying we can/ should talk them out of transitioning but always urging caution before making such a defining decision.

HeadNorth · 01/05/2021 13:40

I am not going to trawl Mumsnet for evidence, do I have to prove the sky is blue? Just go to the FWR board. Debate is important but it cannot start from the assumption that being trans is 'wrong', because it isn't. It just is. I don't think any parent would want their child to be trans and all would want them to take their time. But I am pointing out that some will continue and transition, because that is what they believe is the best way for them to live their life. And in the end, we have to accept adults rights to make those choices for themselves, if we really want to do what is best for our children.

Notagain20 · 01/05/2021 13:43

I guess what would be really helpful is more information about how parents can respond to daughters who feel highly distressed about their bodies, in ways that are loving and supportive and help girls explore their feelings and the whole range of factors that might be involved.

It so often gets presented as either you accept everything your child says without question or you "hate trans" and your children will die. But there are loving, empathic and supportive ways of exploring and containing kids' feelings with them while they grow

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Tibtom · 01/05/2021 13:46

I am not going to trawl Mumsnet for evidence

The reason why you won't look is because you know you won't find.

On the otherhand there is plenty of actual hatred for women from transactivists: www.terfisaslur.com

ViciousJackdaw · 01/05/2021 13:49

Debate is important but it cannot start from the assumption that being trans is 'wrong', because it isn't

Agreed. Trans is not 'wrong'. Should we perhaps consider 'Is trans 'right' for this particular person'?

Notagain20 · 01/05/2021 13:50

@HeadNorth

I am not going to trawl Mumsnet for evidence, do I have to prove the sky is blue? Just go to the FWR board. Debate is important but it cannot start from the assumption that being trans is 'wrong', because it isn't. It just is. I don't think any parent would want their child to be trans and all would want them to take their time. But I am pointing out that some will continue and transition, because that is what they believe is the best way for them to live their life. And in the end, we have to accept adults rights to make those choices for themselves, if we really want to do what is best for our children.
I'm sorry if you've read posts that say being transgender is "wrong", and would encourage you to report them. I don't think anyone on this thread has implied anything like that, but again would urge you to report anything you see that you think is offensive or discriminatory
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bonbonours · 01/05/2021 13:52

Yes the problem is, anyone who has teens knows that teenagers believe they know everything and parents know nothing. Any attempt to look at underlying reasons by me results in accusations of not being supportive, being transphobic, or not understanding. All of which results in the teen keeping as much as possible secret from their parent. So it's a very fine line to tread to keep a good parent-teen relationship while not jumping aboard the trans wagon.

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