To say that your if daughter tells you she feels the same as Elliot Page

[Notagain20]

... To please explore all the reasons why she might feel intensely uncomfortable with her growing female body, and not just assume she's transgender?

There's such an epidemic of sexual assault, harassment and sexualised bullying towards girls of all ages. Kids are exposed to violent porn from the moment they can use a phone. Eating disorders are exploding, further evidence that hatred of bodies is rife among young people. Adolescence has always been a storm of hormones and emotions, girls have always discovered that their bodies are treated as public property but that is so much worse now.

If your daughter hates her female body please don't assume she's transgender. She might be, but it's far more likely that she is having a normal response to a really sexist society. She needs your help to discover how women throughout time have helped each other navigate this experience, looked after each other, and organised together to change things.

This is a very interesting thread from a father in that position, and how he's chosen to act.

twitter.com/RogdDad/status/1311367531840647169?s=19

@terfinginthevoid

The increasingly widespread belief that there is such a thing as ‘being genuinely trans’ is a major part of the problem. No one is ‘genuinely trans’, in the sense that no one is born in the wrong body.

Psychiatric illness is cultural. People who experience mental distress express it in culturally available ways. Once it was ‘believing you are made of glass’.

Young people in psychological distress can currently adopt ‘being trans’ as a culturally approved explanation and expression of their pain. And rather than receive appropriate psychological therapy to explore what is really going on, misguided psychologists and doctors are giving them hormones and surgery.

Yep, well said. There have been so many versions of this phenomenon, but none as lucrative for the medical and pharma industries.

Full thread from.above link

"My daughter was 12 when she told us she was trans.

"I had never heard of ROGD or @LisaLittman1 at that time, but even then I knew that she'd gotten the idea from the Internet.

"I'm a geek. I'm internet savvy. I knew exactly what kinds of shit my daughter would find /1on reddit and DeviantArt and tumblr. And I knew she was surfing those sites. So when she told me she was trans, it wasn't really a surprise. Like a lot of girls, she really hated her period. And she didn't like puberty. And hey, here's a bunch of people online telling her /2"That means you have gender dysphoria! You're trans!"

"And boom, right there, a handy all-purpose explanation for all the awkwardness she was feeling. And it lets her be a Social Justice Hero to boot. What's not to like?

"I have never told her she isn't trans. /3I've never put it in those absolute terms.

"But I have told her that there are alternate explanations for what she's experiencing and how she's feeling. That everybody feels awkward and weird when they go through puberty. Especially girls, whose bodies go through a much /4bigger change than boys. And that what she thinks of as gender dysphoria might be just the fact that she can remember years and years of not having boobs and a period and now all of the sudden she's got both. And it's kinda weird, right? /5So when I talk to her about being trans, I don't frame it as "You're not trans". That's adversarial, and I think that's not going to be productive.

"Instead, I frame it as "Being trans is ONE explanation for how you feel. And it MAY be the correct one, I dunno." /6

"But it also may not, right? There may be other explanations. And your mom and I think it's important for you to keep that in mind. We're not trying to push you through the 'not Trans' doorway. But you're trying really really hard to close that door, and we /7just think it would be a good idea to keep it open until you're at least a little older."

"As always, we'll see how it goes in 3-6 years."

I agree with you OP.
It's so rare but suddenly it's a fashionable reaction to sexism and misogyny.

That's not the same as saying I do not believe there are no struggling trans daughters out there.

But when it's talked about so constantly, it's become the go to label to hang your misgivings on. We were mired in oppressive catholicism ten minutes ago (metaphorically) and now my daughter has a trans girl in her convent, she gets a lot of attention from being trans which is what my daughter suspects she really needs. She was a vegan first. That got no attention. And my son's school, an ET and they're always sending home alerts through the app on how to be an ally etc. Geez. Relax. Just wait and see what the children become. Often they become.. poor. Abused. Lonely. Disengaged. All of these meetings about how to be a trans ally when there are many many many bigger issues all of them unaddressed. Poverty, for one. Domestic abuse!? Parents abusing alcohol or drugs? Verbal abuse at home?

I would like to see a mentoring programme for sons in single parent families. This is just one issue which is a much much bigger issue in reality but nope, trans obsession.

@puppychaos I'm so glad that you had such great support and space to work things out. Anyone in distress who is just dismissed is going to retreat and feel so much worse.

Unfortunately, I'm seeing this a lot in groups of girls - whole friend groups. Make of that what you will. My worry would be what happens the other side when after the cheerleading dies down and the person now finds themselves with a lifelong dependence on meds. I would be very very worried if this was my daughter. I'd not be affirming too quickly, instead I would be looking for the sensible wait and see approach - as most young people with sudden onset dysphoria grow out of it by the time they have been through puberty. It's different if you are viewing this as one rare case, the thing that I am seeing is three or four girls in a friend group all suddenly announcing they are trans. When you are seeing it so frequently - it's getting to the point where all of my daughter's friend groups have one or two girls in them now saying they are trans - you have to wonder what is going on (what they are consuming on the internet)

I fear this will not end well for a lot of very confused young people.

It's also interesting that women who point out some of the issues to do with safeguarding young people and not pushing them into medication and affirmation - are given death and rape threats on the internet. Surely that in itself tells you a lot about what is going on here.

Bear in mind, Elliot is an adult in their 30s, so you cannot dismiss their feelings as pubertal angst. I think most/all parents would want their child to take their time and proceed with caution, but once they are 18 they are adults and can make their own decisions. It is then up to you, as a parent, to make peace with those decisions if you want to maintain a loving relationship with your child. If your hatred of trans is stronger than your love for your child, that is a choice for you to live with.

Whatever a child says from 8 onwards is so, so heavily influenced by their peers and their culture, possibly more so that any other point in their lives, that I would most definitely keep the ‘in trends’ in mind as they expressed their own growing thoughts.

That is it really, I’d listen and notice, allowing their expression.

But I would not be ‘led by the child’ into any action, any extremes and if they seemed to be getting quite intense then I’d steer them back to ‘well, you’ve plenty of time... just enjoy your childhood, explore... no I don’t think actions of this and this yet... ‘etc.

Most children will go a bit extreme whilst they struggle to find themselves in all of our cultural norms. Going into teenage hood the urge to fit in is totally overwhelming. So I would always, always seek the context for my child’s thoughts.

If my child wanted to eat only protein shakes and body build - well obviously they want to look great and are noticing themselves as attractive objects - then I would acknowledge the wish to be attractive but would rein them in from protein shakes, and too much weight training.

If my child wanted to eat less in order to look great in instagram shots I would be advising healthy eating.

If my child said that they hated their body, I would again be trying to help them not hate any part of themselves, if they have uncomfortable feelings that is OK to express, but not OK to demonise themselves as again, that is extreme thinking no matter what any role model on TV says.

It is OK to express feelings that they might be feeling different, but childhood is a growing, where every child should feel safe and secure enough to have time to explore all their feelings. But extreme action and damaging extreme thoughts are not healthy for a child and are the product of people whipping up hysteria around children.

I believe it is my job as a parent to help them to feel safe enough to journey through this time in the most sensible, secure way possible. As we all know, young kids are not very sensible and are often intense! They’ve got the rest of their adult lives to make proper, adult decisions about themselves. Childhood is their one safe place to grow into that.

Somebody upthread said there are many reasons to opt out of femininity and this is really true.
When I was at school there were sporty girls who just opted out of femininity but they didn't make any big statement about it. They were who they were. In some ways the labelling has made things harder. You have to define yourself now!?

@Tippexy

Agree OP.

Please also explore whether your daughter has been abused or experienced any trauma and if so how she has been supported to deal with this.

Also consider if she may have autism.

And whether she may be being bullied at school.

Also please start intensively monitoring internet usage.

It depends what you do with that information though. Mine is autistic. It doesnt mean I get to go " youre just autistic" and dismiss their feelings. You cant just ban the internet with teenagers. They have to learn to navigate it. You can put parental controls to stop them having unfiltered access to porn and 18+ sites, but you cant stop them talking about things.

@BanginChoons

If someone tells you who they are, maybe you should believe them.

My DD told us she was married to David Beckham when she was 5. Should we believe her?

Well done OP for starting a common sense discussion on this. I'm the parent of a teen LGBTQ+ child. Thank heavens DC is sensible and school are great. They are able to explore themselves, their feelings, how they want to dress and be without being forced into untested medication and sterilization. I am horrified by these crazy adult activists who want to medically experiment on young people and demonize the women who stand in their way. More sensible common sense discussion please, fewer slogans, medication and rape threats

@JellySlice

But actually, what turned out to be the issue was that A- I was autistic, and B- I was scared and frightened by sexuality and expectations and the 'how to' of having a relationship.

As is very likely with mine.

I totally agree with that. I have a child who is special needs and very vulnerable, in that they have no idea about social expectations, very little idea of their own identity yet (but it is coming slowly).

I am very wary that my child tends to ‘go’ with whatever society tells them and I am limiting social media and choosing their schools very carefully because of that - any school with too much of an ‘agenda’ of identity- whether that is very pro trans, or the opposite no diversity at all - I am going to avoid to give my child the best chance of being allowed to blossom in their own way. Not anyone else’s!

@HeadNorth

Bear in mind, Elliot is an adult in their 30s, so you cannot dismiss their feelings as pubertal angst. I think most/all parents would want their child to take their time and proceed with caution, but once they are 18 they are adults and can make their own decisions. It is then up to you, as a parent, to make peace with those decisions if you want to maintain a loving relationship with your child. If your hatred of trans is stronger than your love for your child, that is a choice for you to live with.

Totally. My concern is that a single, specific explanation of young women's distress about their experience of growing up with a female body becomes the dominant one and parents and therapists become afraid, not least because of suicide threats and lack of decent mental health services, to take the time to explore other issues.

I watched the interview with Elliot page. Elliot looks emaciated and very emotionally fragile and not like a positive role model at all

Totally OP. I was a "tomboy". Short hair, refused to wear girly clothes, wanted to play with boys, play football. I outgrew it. I genuinely think it is allowing your hormones to kick in that helps you comes to terms with the changes in your body.

I also stopped being disgusted by the idea of sex/relationships at about 16 and realised that I didn't mind if growing breasts made me attractive to the boys ar school.... if anything, it was a perk!

I still like sports, rarely wear dresses & skirts or makeup, but I'm a 100% happy heterosexual woman.

This account of misattributing issues to gender dysphoria is highly relevant to the thread, I feel.

4w.pub/autism-puberty-gender-dysphoria-view-from-an-autistic-desisted-woman/

I really think you need to take a wider view on this. The bodies of both sexes change when going through puberty. And at other stages in life. A man might go bald rarely welcomed. A woman might get more facial hair again not welcomed.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes that is a really interesting article. I do feel quite fiercely protective of autistic children. No-one should be strongly encouraging their emerging thoughts to ‘be anything’ as I do feel that autistic children need as much space and time without influence to grow, think, gather their own selves in their own way.

Unfortunately there is also a young adult, vocal autistic community who are heavily trans, quite dictorial in what thoughts are OK and not OK, and so that becomes the norm for a teenage autistic. They need a much more diverse and broad community who are not so prescriptive.

Between 80% and 95% of teenagers who present as transgender will be happy with their sex once they past puberty. If 'affirmed' they are much more likely to end up as lifelong medical patients putting themselves forward for major and risky surgery.

Female to male patients tend to be teenagers and be told they must medically transition

Male to female transitioners tend to be middle aged and not only do the vast majority not have surgery but it is put forward that changes to presentation or dress are not necessary either (such as shaving off a beard)

Suicide is often falaely presented as a readon for transitioning but rusk of suicide increases multifold post transition

If a 6 stone adult told you they were fat would you believe them?

@Moonsick

In the 90s I had an account which I was going to use for a mastectomy - had £3000 in it by the time I was 18 as I put every penny I had into it. I wore baggy clothes and had short hair, rejected anything even slightly feminine, insisted on the male version of my name. Hated the attention my large boobs got from creepy men and boys (including my lecherous uncle). Hated having periods, hated the changes in my body, swore never to have children ever. Dreamed of a male body and living as a man. Desisted at university when I discovered radical feminism and decided to fight society rather than my own body.

And now radical feminism has been all but completely suppressed at university, we are left with transition.

So sad.

@nolongersurprised

I watched the interview with Elliot page. Elliot looks emaciated and very emotionally fragile and not like a positive role model at all

This. Unfortunately we are not allowed to talk about the co-morbidities that exist in many trans identified people.

I wonder if it has to do with how horrible women are treated in society?

There was a document done in Australia of school girl's experience of rape, assault, sexual harassment some starting at age 10.

So many of them wrote about how they've been touched by their fellow male students at school, on buses and schools did nothing.

Teen girls are expected to behave like porn stars to have a boyfriend and coerced to do anal, slapped, choked as well as be poly these days.

Maybe some of them realise they are prey and and blame their maturing bodies? Some might think if they had a chance to be a white male in society, why wouldn't they be!

I was a tomboy as it was just who I was. I moved to being more feminine in high school partly due to peer pressure. I did the normal things got married and had children and never thought much more about it.

I'd say since menopause and turning 50, I feel I'd much rather present as a man. I'm not sure why. The decrease in female hormones making me feel like I was prior to puberty? Who knows. I have no attraction to women so it is nothing sexual. I don't want a beard or penis either.

I'm just one person so don't want to speculate about what others feel.

For those of you who have daughters, I'd say just listen.

And now radical feminism has been all but completely suppressed at university, we are left with transition

So sad.

Yep. Rad Fem = terf bitch at uni.

That doesn’t really leave anywhere for women to go does it???

Someone might think that was the plan all along.