Do I challenge how my DS described this boy?

[RickyZoom]

My DS is 4 and will make friends with anyone wherever we go.
Recently we went to an playground and he made friends with a boy around his age. When asking him if he enjoyed his day he said "yes, first I had an ice cream, then I played with the black boy." Now AIBU just to let this description pass as a 4 year old describing what someone looks like, the same as if he was telling me his hair colour or should I be starting to discuss what is and isn't appropriate ways to describe people. Or am I worrying about nothing?

I've never seen a Black person whose skin looks like chocolate

I've been privileged to see and know many Black people of varying brown complexion and shades - some of them refer to themselves as chocolate, mahogany, caramel, milky latte, etc. My skin is probably the colour of hot chocolate or mocha drink. I can't quite place it still - still looking for my colour twin.

One of my dc used to refer to their skin colour as caramel colour (and it's actually quite accurate), lick their arm and say it's delicious; always compared their arm colour side by side to any brown-looking object and was fascinated by all colours, including different skin colours.

They also called mine 'green and grey brown' because apparently I have green, grey, red and orange undertones [when we started learning about different undertones].

Now, I know they would never dream of saying anything to anybody except us, extended family and close friends about skin because they've been conditioned taught to walk according to the society we live in and have to navigate it carefully. It would have been completely different had they grown up in my country of origin.

One is autistic (as am I) so this has been more challenging to raise them to not say what is but what is expected. It's almost distressing to twist and turn reality but I get it. I get the reason for it. Skin colour is not a sore topic for me but I know it is for some people.

Disabrie22

My child is really specific with colour - she actually describes people as “peach, olive, brown and black” if she’s feeling creative we’ll also get “golden.” She is mixed herself.“

Oh my goodness, I really, really want to be “golden” now

@AfromegMy son who’s autistic once spent about 45 mins trying to tell me about this girl who when asked his only descriptor was ‘she jingles (ok...) and she has a face )
It transpired he meant the only other child bar him and his siblings who wasn’t white (they are mixed Asian/white), and the only black kid in the school. Didn’t enter his head that that might be a useful part of figuring out who he meant . She ‘jingles’ because she had beads in her hair.

at being referred to as "brown" or brown- skinned" because it is reminiscent of the way colonialists would refer to people they did not consider equal,*

In my country, colonisers called us black, not brown.

But for me, my sadness isn't about being called Black but about having my literal colour (brown) rigidly demanded to be taken away for all Black people apparently and seen as bad to describe someone in that way because other people reject it/theirs as a descriptor.

I believe it should be a case-by-case basis but I know that won't happen because it's also seen as offensive to ask people what they'd rather be called, so it's easier to assign the same label to everyone.

@Butwasitherdriveway what do you mean, black isn’t a race?

@OwlBeThere Sounds like what mine would say then about someone with any remarkable/different look or anything on them. They'd zero in on whatever that is and would remember them by it, sometimes in a random way.

Also used to say 'yellow hair' for blonde hair.

Thank you. @AccidentallyOnPurpose

Like you said, "If ever needed". I know skin colour and/or race description is rarely needed anyway once we get to know someone. Things have just become too much - squabbling over whether to say someone with brown skin actually has brown skin.😪

Anyway, back under my rock I go.

Things have just become too much - squabbling over whether to say someone with brown skin actually has brown skin but insisting on a label used to divide and conquer 😪

Missed that last part out.

Someone was surprised at systematically calling white people white as a descriptor. In certain circumstances, so would I due to where we live. Idk dd’s age when she started to describe the British Indian kids at her school brown and herself peach. Maybe age 6/7 and this was the first time I realised she had noticed skin colour. I didn’t correct her. I did, however, ask a couple of parents if they were ok with their kids being described in this way. At about 7, the kids were describing themselves as Indian.

Dd now has some black friends from secondary that she FaceTimes. She didn’t tell me these friends are black and why should she?

I read upthread some parents taught a 4 yo about BLM. It seems really sad that a parent would feel necessary to protect their young child and tel them they have a different skin colour to warn them they may be racially abused. This puts a tiny child, little more than a baby, on alert they may need to protect themselves. But being white, maybe these parents have a different take that I don’t appreciate? Perhaps a pride in your identity?

For context, I taught dd about the concept of racism when she was about 7, around the time when the kids were identifying themselves as Indian. I didn’t want to teach dd anything before I knew she noticed skin colour and none of the parents I spoke to had taught their dcs at a younger age either. We are in quite a middle class area for context. I said something along the lines of some people are mean to people because of the colour of their skin or don’t want to play with them, that’s crazy, right?

I wouldn’t challenge how your ds has described the boy. I imagine, rather like my dd, your ds hasn’t encountered many black kids. I’m also surprised he learned to describe people by their ethnicity. Either a change in curriculum from when my 12 yo dd was at primary. Or perhaps the boy described himself as black.

@Afromeg
I’m sorry this thread is such a difficult read and hurting your feelings so much. I think you have a big heart and your posts are so full of emotion and beauty. Please don’t hide under a rock. I think you have a lot to teach people. I don’t like labelling people either, which is what I was trying to get at in my post. But without offending others, who may feel differently.

@Mummyoflittledragon Thank you - that's very kind of you.

I agree with your post above. I could say more but I'm not sure it really matters anymore and I'll probably be derailing the thread from it's original issue.

@Afromeg

Thank you. *@AccidentallyOnPurpose*

Like you said, "If ever needed". I know skin colour and/or race description is rarely needed anyway once we get to know someone. Things have just become too much - squabbling over whether to say someone with brown skin actually has brown skin.😪

Anyway, back under my rock I go.

I dislike being described as having brown skin (or chocolate, coffee coloured, grey, yellow, dirty coloured ...yes, I've been called all these) even if it's just an accurate visual description. I also dislike being described as "Asian" (not my ethnicity; you really can't tell just by looking at someone).
For me, this is mainly because past experience tells me that people who use these terms either treat me differently or are outwardly racist because of my skin colour so as soon as someone uses these terms it immediately brings up negative connotations. Same way as people know not to use certain terms about ethnic groups because they can give offense.

I don't see this as any different to being called fat, ugly, big nosed, bald, spotty ... which are also accurate descriptors but parents would tend to tell their children not to use.

My daughter is mobility impaired and is called "cripple" (and some other even more unpleasant things) at school. This might be an accurate description, but doesn't mean she wants to be called it! I feel the same way about skin colour. Afromeg clearly feels differently to me, and I'm really pleased that she doesn't have the negative feelings that I do about being described using her skin colour. The trouble is that if you meet a stranger, you have no idea which way they will go, so surely you should err on the side of not giving offense?

The trouble is that if you meet a stranger, you have no idea which way they will go, so surely you should err on the side of not giving offense?

Since people feel differently, which side of 'not giving offence' would that be? Or does one side's offence trump others? The best bet would be to ask but even that is seen as 'giving offence'. There's no winning here. So, say nothing I suppose.

It's okay if you dislike it - your experience is valid to you. My issue was never about people having different interests and dislikes but about having others' dislikes imposed as a blanket rule. We all like what we like.

I would have stopped here but I actually find it troubling, to say the least, and completely disagree that my skin colour as a literal descriptor is the same thing as the subjective (not accurate) description of ugly and fat. How about beautiful, healthy weight? Those are descriptors too. It's the same person but seen in different ways. Why the negative only, based on different people's perception?

My skin colour isn't subjective - it will always be brown, no matter who's looking (besides visual impairment). It can't be brown to one person and blue to another. Coffee, chocolate, caramel, etc are subjective descriptors and cannot be for everyone.

Bald is a literal description. You either have hair or you don't. Two people wont see 'no hair on his head' differently. Big-nose can be both literal and subjective because one person may see it as big and another as not.

"Cripple" used to be acceptable but isn't appropriate anymore. Other words have become more appropriate - so someone saying it is either ignorant of the new term or deliberately being offensive. It's the same as coloured/negro/Black race/poc/BAME but not the same as actual 'brown skin' colour or 'black skin' colour (because some people's skin is literally black in colour) or any other skin colour description. These colours are what they are based on the names we've agreed to in society and don't go in and out of fashion. The other terms do because rather than shift offensive mindset, we ban words and repeat the cycle.

Green grass, black horse, brown cat, white door - all literal descriptions. 'Dirty-colour' is subjective, ignorant and/or insensitive at best because dirt/dirty has never been a 'good' word. It's not the same as actual colours. 'Brown' is not a negative word but some people can use it negatively - same as every other word really.

Again, if we're going with what colours represent, then how about Black death, Black Monday, Dark soul, Black heart, 'In a dark place mentally', and all the other negative things Black or Dark is used by most people to represent in society to this day? Shouldn't this also affect the way I see being called a Black person = also 'bad/horrible/threatening/sad and creepy/to be avoided' or doesn't that count?

I believe our experiences can filter our perception of people and their intention. Sometimes, it's for the worst. I prefer to look at individual intention and not just words used or err on the side of being neutral at first and not tar everyone with the same brush - I've had my own personal tragedies as well as collective ones in my family and home country but I'll be damned if I let them or this particular issue determine my identity. I don't see myself through anyone's eyes.

We'll agree to disagree because it seems to be a really complex issue.

@Afromeg you made a very valid point when you said that a lot of the comparisons used have been descriptive words that overall have a negative connotation.
Now I wonder why and whether it's a conscious choice from those posters .

It's subtle but I would just correct him and say he's not "the black boy" but "a black boy"

@GreyhoundG1rl

Do you know many four year olds who can tell you about the slave trade then? You're still missing the point, what's the matter with you? The reception kids would be introduced to it at a very age appropriate level but the salient point is they'll be aware that black people refer to themselves as black. I honestly don't know what you find difficult to understand.

I don't.