Do I challenge how my DS described this boy?

[RickyZoom]

My DS is 4 and will make friends with anyone wherever we go.
Recently we went to an playground and he made friends with a boy around his age. When asking him if he enjoyed his day he said "yes, first I had an ice cream, then I played with the black boy." Now AIBU just to let this description pass as a 4 year old describing what someone looks like, the same as if he was telling me his hair colour or should I be starting to discuss what is and isn't appropriate ways to describe people. Or am I worrying about nothing?

@LindaEllen

If he's trying to tell you which child, and there was one black child, why shouldn't he use that to let you know who he was playing with? I actually don't understand why we can't do the same as adults without being corrected. It's no different to saying the blonde one or the tall one.

It's not racist to make an observation. What is racist is if you treat people different based on their colour - which obviously your boy wasn't, as they were happily playing!

This with bells on. It was a 4 year olds observing. They were too busy having fun together to catch each other’s names, and the likelihood of them remembering them is even slimmer at that age....

Not sure what mm means. You might think I'm overly worthy or whatever but they were doing the topic of black history at school, we have a specialist book shop on our high street, I like buying books, it all felt quite natural. The only real point was that my 4yp is well aware of the concept of race and would comfortably describe someone as black if necessary to distinguish them. But a random comment about "playing with the black boy" does jar a little and I can see why the op posted to ask if she should address it.

@longestlurkerever

Not sure what mm means. You might think I'm overly worthy or whatever but they were doing the topic of black history at school, we have a specialist book shop on our high street, I like buying books, it all felt quite natural. The only real point was that my 4yp is well aware of the concept of race and would comfortably describe someone as black if necessary to distinguish them. But a random comment about "playing with the black boy" does jar a little and I can see why the op posted to ask if she should address it.

I don't disagree.

I just think we are being deceitful to pretend a four years old have a fantastic knowledge of race. They don't.

Actually she's 5 now but this was a few months ago.

No of course not a fantastic knowledge of race. Just not unfamiliar with the term black! My 4/5yo can read and "black lives matter" has been written on every other window this year where we live. They've covered it in school. She went to keyworker hub which was mixed ages and it was the all school topic for several weeks

@hugocat

When my daughter was 3 she described the blac child she was playing with as 'having a choccy face' She cringes now when I tell her this

Sure she did

The author of this book came to talk in zoom assembly www.100greatblackbritons.co.uk/

This thread is heart-rending! Not surprised but still...Is this what the world has become? To think that we were just talking about losing faith in humanity.

What I've just learned is this:

As a person of West African descent with brown skin, black hair, brown eyes, pink nails, black eyebrows and lashes; with children (who always described skin colour in the way they literally saw it, which is 'brown' and later also learned about race and the word for people who have brown skin - Black) and a husband with the same colour in everything, we must be doing something VERY wrong to describe ourselves, friends and family by these very attributes and their (different) colours. Actually, the others are fine but the skin (the largest part of me) doesn't deserve to be mentioned. It's nasty to do so because mentioning it means you don't see me as anything else, yet it's also nasty to not see my (race) colour. So you should see it but also shouldn't see it or you should see it but avoid mentioning it, like the plague or leprosy!

We're also committing a terrible offence by encouraging others to describe us (me and my family) by our very own natural skin colour because it's part of who we are.

I've learned that everybody else knows how to describe us (me and my family) better than us because we're part of a group. We must pick a race (colour) - No, we must accept the race colour given to us because everything else but this race colour is offensive! It's okay to be called a collective race colour (and I mustn't forget that sometimes, it's also not okay) but NEVER okay to be called my natural skin colour.

To summarise the lesson I've learned:

My very own skin colour, given to me by Mother Nature (God, even, if we want to go there) = No. Don't say it.

My collective race colour, given to me by God-knows-who for God-knows-what-reason and is, coincidentally', also used to refer to a lot of bad or negative things in the world when not used literally = Yes/Sometimes.

END OF LESSON.

What an incredible twist of the mind! Everyday is school day, indeed.

OP, sorry I have no response to your actual thread because I'm lost for words and deeply saddened by how entrenched this opinion is after reading these posts. I seem to have been in a bubble or under a rock. I'll probably go back in there.😢

@DroopyDaff

When my youngest was around the same age, he reportedly said that he wanted to lick his friend because he was brown like chocolate.

The nursery told me it had to be logged as a racist incident. No joke.

I also worked in a company where no one was allowed to describe black/Indian/Chinese colleagues as such and would go all round the houses describing their hair, if they wore glasses, age, accent, height etc.

PC gone mad.

MN of old was filled with hilarious posts like this. Incredible how many children apparently never watch CBeebies, even though they live in such white areas they remark on the resemblance of black people to chocolate.

I think it is nonsense. I know there are variations in colour on black skin but even so I have never seen a black person who’s skin looks like chocolate.

@Afromeg

This thread is heart-rending! Not surprised but still...Is this what the world has become? To think that we were just talking about losing faith in humanity.

What I've just learned is this:

As a person of West African descent with brown skin, black hair, brown eyes, pink nails, black eyebrows and lashes; with children (who always described skin colour in the way they literally saw it, which is 'brown' and later also learned about race and the word for people who have brown skin - Black) and a husband with the same colour in everything, we must be doing something VERY wrong to describe ourselves, friends and family by these very attributes and their (different) colours. Actually, the others are fine but the skin (the largest part of me) doesn't deserve to be mentioned. It's nasty to do so because mentioning it means you don't see me as anything else, yet it's also nasty to not see my (race) colour. So you should see it but also shouldn't see it or you should see it but avoid mentioning it, like the plague or leprosy!

We're also committing a terrible offence by encouraging others to describe us (me and my family) by our very own natural skin colour because it's part of who we are.

I've learned that everybody else knows how to describe us (me and my family) better than us because we're part of a group. We must pick a race (colour) - No, we must accept the race colour given to us because everything else but this race colour is offensive! It's okay to be called a collective race colour (and I mustn't forget that sometimes, it's also not okay) but NEVER okay to be called my natural skin colour.

To summarise the lesson I've learned:

My very own skin colour, given to me by Mother Nature (God, even, if we want to go there) = No. Don't say it.

My collective race colour, given to me by God-knows-who for God-knows-what-reason and is, coincidentally', also used to refer to a lot of bad or negative things in the world when not used literally = Yes/Sometimes.

END OF LESSON.

What an incredible twist of the mind! Everyday is school day, indeed.

OP, sorry I have no response to your actual thread because I'm lost for words and deeply saddened by how entrenched this opinion is after reading these posts. I seem to have been in a bubble or under a rock. I'll probably go back in there.😢

How would you prefer to be described/referred to?

Genuine question.

Afromeg, I'm really sorry. If you're referring to my posts I didn't mean to be offensive at all and am very happy to be educated. Ultimately all I want to be is respectful to people, while being aware that not everyone feels the same way about things. I was talking to a colleague today about this very issue and he said "as a black person I do not want my appearance commented on more than would be the case for a white colleague. It makes me feel there's something wrong or surprising about me and the way I look." My dh is Asian and would feel uncomfortable at being referred to as "brown" or *brown- skinned" because it is reminiscent of the way colonialists would refer to people they did not consider equal, though obviously in the right context referring to his skin tone as brown is fine.

My skin colour is a perfect description of my skin colour: me. I am brown; a brown person; a brown-skinned woman; the woman with brown skin, etc. I'm perfectly happy with being described the exact way I am. It has no negative connotation in my mind. Describing me as 'brown' is like calling grass 'green' or the sky 'blue' or my hair 'black'. Why should it become 'wrong' to be literal?

However, I'm also happy to be called Black because I've been assigned it as part of a group. It doesn't say much about me though - It's just more convenient for others because they've been told this.

But my voice is like a drop in the ocean when it comes to these things. I'll happily live as I do in private and leave others to it.

*I know there are variations in colour on black skin but even so I have never seen a black person who’s skin looks like chocolate."

Really? "Black" skin can definitely look like chocolate, in terms of colour. Black skin comes in a lot of shades, and so does chocolate. In the same way that white skin can look like a cafe latte. Or like a sal Not that anyone would actually confuse them.

Afromeg, that's helpful to know, thank you.

@longestlurkerever No I wasn't referring to you or any one post actually. Just the majority post on here as I read. Didn't look at usernames.

People have different views - that's how they feel and it's valid to them.

How I feel is that I'm personally saddened that this mind-bendy and frankly unreasonable way of seeing/describing or not seeing/describing someone is a majority and seemingly-unshakeable view, so it's assigned to me and my family as part of the group when our view is different but what can one do.

For those struggling to understand what the problem could possibly be: Black is the right term so there's nothing wrong with that. But as adults we hopefully tend to avoid needlessly referencing others' ethnic origins when talking about them. It's a sensitive subject for various historical and current reasons.

It's fine to use them as a way to clarify who you are referring to, when you don't know the name for example, and there's no need to tie yourself in knots trying to avoid saying "the East Asian woman" or "the Black man" (not sure why we don't normally capitalise that actually) when that's the most straightforward description.

But you wouldn't normally tell someone that you "got chatting with a black woman at the bus stop today" unless it was actually relevant to the conversation.

So, if there are normally two boys that he plays with and he wanted to clarify that this week he was playing with the black one not the white one, that's a bit different to just mentioning the ethnic origin when it doesn't distinguish anything.

But yeah, he's four, so not a problem and no need to do anything about it. He'll figure it out as he grows up.

PS I'm not any sort of authority on this, it's just my opinion on why it's sometimes ok to refer to others' race and sometimes feels "off".

I’d say something, purely because your DS wouldn’t say he played with a white boy. Introduced the concept of being sensitive about someone’s skin colour

I’d introduce the same thing but my DS can’t talk unfortunately

Why should it become 'wrong' to be literal? Because even though you don't mind being referred to as brown, some people do. These words are unfortunately not just descriptors, they come with centuries worth of baggage. You can refer to yourself as whatever you like, obviously. And if people have any manners they should follow your preference and not insist on calling you black if you don't like that.

Really although there's nothing wrong with the word black, I think when describing a friend it's best to focus on other characteristics rather than rely solely on skin colour labels. No body wants to be referred to by their race alone, which can easily happen if they are the only one of that race present. Equally I can see people being unhappy with being described by their friends as the bald one, the old one, the short one etc. Just more polite to find some other way.

@Afromeg

My skin colour is a perfect description of my skin colour: me. I am brown; a brown person; a brown-skinned woman; the woman with brown skin, etc. I'm perfectly happy with being described the exact way I am. It has no negative connotation in my mind. Describing me as 'brown' is like calling grass 'green' or the sky 'blue' or my hair 'black'. Why should it become 'wrong' to be literal?

However, I'm also happy to be called Black because I've been assigned it as part of a group. It doesn't say much about me though - It's just more convenient for others because they've been told this.

But my voice is like a drop in the ocean when it comes to these things. I'll happily live as I do in private and leave others to it.

Thank you for your answer.

I hope that if I knew you personally I would also know your preference and just used that (if ever needed).

@TaraR2020

I would say something, if he's old enough to say please and thank you (which he is) then he is old enough to be guided towards appropriate language and to be introduced to the concept of racism.

He's 4 for fuck sake! No comment necessary as it doesn't need to be made into an issue when he's just seeing a colour!!

One of my friends kids went home after she met me for the first time aged 4 and referred to me as ‘the Mulan lady’.
I think black boy is fine. He’s 4, he’s not racist.

I have a four year old and she has said similar. "Sarah at school has brown skin" Sarah is the only child in her class who isn't white so of course they notice these things. It was an observation nothing more. I would certainly not introduce the concept of racism to a four year old based on this. If she had said something mean about Sarah's skin then my approach would be different.

She did ask once "why is that man's skin black?" and she seemed amused by it but he was out of earshot, we live in a VERY white area so it was possibly the first time she'd encountered someone with dark skin IRL and she was only three so all I did was increase exposure to different types of people through books and tv programmes.

My child is really specific with colour - she actually describes people as “peach, olive, brown and black” if she’s feeling creative we’ll also get “golden.” She is mixed herself.

@UserTwice

Black is fine as a descriptor for a person who is of black ethnic origin.

I'd be a surprised if a 4 year old knows this though so likely they were talking about the actual colour of the boy's skin. Which isn't acceptable. So I'd suggest that OP tells her son it's not nice to describe people using their skin colour and he should choose something else. What would she do if he said a lady was "fat"? He might just be making a childish observation but he still needs to know that this isn't a socially acceptable way to talk about someone.

Why is it not nice to describe someone using their skin colour? For example, "who does this bag belong to?" "The tall black lady over there". Or "It's belongs to the short white bloke over there". Nothing wrong with that. Plus the police always expect a description of skin colour when asking about suspects.

My son is 5 and would only use the word black to describe what someone is wearing - which was very confusing for us for a while. We are having to explain to him now what most people mean when they describe someone as black or white.