To be miffed at all the presents for being a wife and mother

[Creamcustards]

Inspired by the baby shower thread.

What is it that makes us ‘reward’ getting married and having children with money and gifts?! I mean, surely the joy of the marriage / the child is enough!?

Yes, I am single and childfree. Maybe a little bit bitter?!! When I get a pet or a new job or there some other happy event in my life I don’t get showered with gifts / money!

Grr.

@ILikeTheWineNotTheLabel

I’ve never gotten the stop buying Xmas/birthday gifts for relatives once they have kids thing.

If it’s a person you love, it’s a person you love surely, regardless of procreative status.

While what you're saying makes sense, in my family that sentiment meant that my Mum felt she had to buy presents for 35-40 people at Christmas. It was getting really out of hand so now we just buy for the kids and do a secret Santa for the adults.

Because getting married and having babies are special events in life. Getting a new pet isn't the same.
Oh and something called birthdays?

@cowgran Maybe condoms then?

[quote ILikeTheWineNotTheLabel]@cowgran Maybe condoms then?[/quote]
🤣🤣🤣

@Flowers24

Because getting married and having babies are special events in life. Getting a new pet isn't the same. Oh and something called birthdays?

But who are you to judge?

To some people, getting a pet or a promotion is the highlight of their decade. Not everyone is fortunate to find a spouse or bear a child. Are you saying they aren't worthy of congratulations and celebration and moral support for whatever they choose to prioritize?

A nasty piece of work, if so.

@SmokedDuck

I've said you are being unreasonable.

The traditional reasons for gifts for these things is that they are major life events that require some real investment, particularly setting up a new household. Which used to be the norm for people getting married.

So their family and community came together to help them out.

Many people set up a household earlier than they marry now, but I think we still recognise the old pattern.

We've gone over the top with gifts generally as a society and it's made even events that make a certain amount of sense seem over the top and greedy. But I think the underlying sense is not unreasonable.

"but I think we still recognise the old pattern."

Why perpetuate an 'old pattern' that excludes a growing number of people?

I think it's old fashioned and came from a place in time where the newly married had nothing and probably the same for new parents. And a time perhaps when contraception wasn't really a thing, so children weren't so much of a choice.

I agree today it's all just an excuse for a big party, which is fine and I'll happily celebrate the good news, but I've decided I'm not going to be buying gifts/donating money for people under these circumstances any more. I'm not that well off and these days neither marriage nor children are inevitable, so I don't think it's too much to expect people to fund their own lifestyle choices.

@Saltyslug

Wedding gift is in exchange for meal/special day

This is such bullshit 😂 Why do people think their wedding is a special day for anyone other than them? It's an awkward social obligation that one can't really get out of without causing offence, it goes on for far too long, you have to make polite chit chat with people you hardly know or have never met, listen to what are usually boring speeches, then try to enjoy a disco whilst tired and with tired children milling around everywhere crying and acting up. I'll willingly celebrate someone's happy occasion, but I'm doing it for them not for me. Often at a friend's wedding you only know the happy couple, who are obviously so wrapped up in each other and accepting congratulations from family and trying to ensure it all runs smoothly, that you barely get to speak to them. It's honestly not a good day/night out.

I find the “funding a lifestyle choice” angle a bit odd. If these days it’s no longer about helping people with the basics as they start out, then you aren’t funding a lifestyle choice at all. You aren’t saving them any money by buying them a photo frame or giving their baby a teddy.

I’m completely on board with “let’s not perpetuate outdated/patriarchal values by only celebrating life events that exclude people who are single or child free”, but it’s contradictory to say that these days people don’t need support with starting out and also that giving presents today is funding a lifestyle choice.

I guess it came from my friends weddings HereComesATractor. One was minted and had everything they needed. Or rather he did. She wanted to put her own stamp on things, it being his house. So along with the wedding invitation came a wedding list with the cheapest gift being £60 which was half a week's wages for me. It very much was funding a lifestyle choice. And there was no "oh don't worry about a gift if you're skint" attitude. She openly admitted she used the wedding gift list to give the house a makeover. The other weddings I've been to have had a post box and requests for cash or a wedding gift list that is all "experiences" you can buy them for their honeymoon, including the flights and hotel etc! I did feel resentful because I just couldn't afford it without going without myself. I guess that's what I mean really. If it's just a celebration then I should have been able to buy a gift I thought my friends would like and that was within my budget. Or could they perhaps accept that my gift to them was my presence at their party? But in every circumstance it was clear that's not what was expected.

If I get married I don't like a fuss so it's a quiet affair and knowing what it's like to be broke I wouldn't dream of sending a gift list with an invite. I'm not a gift giving type of person in general. It's not how I show I care about someone and I generally prefer not to receive them myself, though I accept them with thanks if they're offered.

Maybe it's because I don't see a wedding as this big fabulous day the happy couple are throwing for their guests but rather something they're doing for themselves. They're the ones who want a party at a flash venue, not me. So when they sort of expect payment towards it in the form of gifts it does feel like I'm funding their lifestyle. I'm only there all day because they've requested the pleasure of my company. It's great to see someone get married, but I'd prefer to leave after the church service if it was socially acceptable.

In the days when the newly married couple were moving into a barely furnished first home with nothing much, I'd be more happy to go without myself to get them a useful gift that they needed. Same with children that just came along because you were married and that's what happened, if have more sympathy for the parents needing a cot, baby clothes etc. When everyone is in their late 20s onwards, two households merging into one so they've got plenty of stuff already and babies have been a choice after working out how much maternity leave/few years childcare break they can afford to take, I don't feel they need the gifts. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well. I'm not tight, I'd house clothe and feed a friend who turned up on my doorstep in a pickle. But I wouldn't be guarantor on an expensive place or provide a deposit, just because they didn't like renting the cheaper place.

I think you need better friends to be honest. I don’t know anyone who has thrown weddings like that. I also don’t buy the “present in exchange for party” thing - that’s not the basis on which I throw any party and the concept is tacky. I buy presents because I like to, I don’t care if people don’t bring anything when I am the host (actually I wouldn’t notice if they didn’t but would think it lovely if they did).

I think wedding lists/paying for honeymoon etc are a slightly different kettle of fish/can of worms, but I don’t know anyone who has chosen to have a child without planning how they will afford the basics including clothing, a cot etc, and assuming that friends will cover that. This is what I mean by contradictory - you say you would be happy to buy things that people need but can’t afford, but that in itself is arguably “funding a lifestyle choice” because they couldn’t do it without your generosity. Your friends who can afford it will go ahead whether you choose to give a present or not. If anything, the old-fashioned way of needing help “setting up a home” is funding a lifestyle choice because they couldn’t do it without the help.

FWIW I don’t actually think “choice” was so simple back then (or now, even) - I’m just following the line of argument about “funding lifestyle choices”. The OP herself isn’t talking about things she needs, but the discrepancies between what aspects of life are celebrated and what aren’t, and I think it is a good point. However if I only ever gave presents that people need rather than want then I wouldn’t be turning up to a housewarming party with a bottle of wine and a card, it would be more like a bottle of sink unblocker and a radiator key.

I'm not explaining myself well. It's not a contradiction. I don't mean funding a lifestyle for the basics. Because everyone can afford the basics these days. I mean funding the extravagant lifestyle they want that's above and beyond the basics. And yes I've ditched most of those people now! I don't think they were good friends.

I like the poster who said we celebrate times of opportunity and danger, liminal moments, risk. The celebration isn't for the individual but so that the social fabric remains strong.

Our list of those moments is kind of outdated though. I do think having a child is the most absolute watershed, as is the death of a parent or spouse, and the community does need to come together around a person then.

But getting married - perhaps not so much now? When it's not pegged to financials or daily life so much, it usually doesn't include you moving house, and it's not something that always lasts for ever. It does need a following wind of community support for success, though - perhaps that should be another criterion for social celebration.

Let's make a list of the 21st century moments of greatest change/potential/danger, which need support from others and where a solid tradition of a get-together & presents would help the whole community. I'd say...

Moving in with partner, esp. if any existing children are in the frame
Buying a property of your own for first time
Leaving full time education / achieving a signficant qualification
Moving city, country or continent
Retiring from work or changing career/role significantly
Back to work after being a carer
Finalising a divorce
Setting up a business venture however you define (opening your flower shop, floating your company on the stock exchange, getting your 100th dog walking client, whatever).

What else?

Do people actually want/expect gifts these days, unless you’re close enough to get them a gift they really want and use?

Sending flowers/chocolates in the post sounds so impersonal. And puts pressure on them to reciprocate.

I’m relieved I nolonger get overloaded with gift sets, flowers, cosmetics and things I don’t want. People often just buy for my DC or send a Happy Birthday FB message or E Card which is nice.

I work FT so evenings and weekends are precious time with my own DC, not remembering which distant cousin has a birthday coming up and what’s he into now as I haven’t seen him for 3 years?

You could always have a new pet party but then what if the marrieds got more pets than you? Where would it end?

The sort of weddings you are referring to are a bit of an arms race - it’s all got way over the top. A simple gift should be all that’s needed. And just because you aren’t heading towards marriage now it doesn’t mean you will never be. Or maybe people could have staying single parties?

A new baby is a person in itself and will be a member of your family for the rest of your life. One day that baby might bring you a present to your “50 years single” party? They might make you laugh or they might be a real misery. It’s just nice to celebrate the newcomer.

@Whitegrapewine

I like the poster who said we celebrate times of opportunity and danger, liminal moments, risk. The celebration isn't for the individual but so that the social fabric remains strong.

Our list of those moments is kind of outdated though. I do think having a child is the most absolute watershed, as is the death of a parent or spouse, and the community does need to come together around a person then.

But getting married - perhaps not so much now? When it's not pegged to financials or daily life so much, it usually doesn't include you moving house, and it's not something that always lasts for ever. It does need a following wind of community support for success, though - perhaps that should be another criterion for social celebration.

Let's make a list of the 21st century moments of greatest change/potential/danger, which need support from others and where a solid tradition of a get-together & presents would help the whole community. I'd say...

Moving in with partner, esp. if any existing children are in the frame
Buying a property of your own for first time
Leaving full time education / achieving a signficant qualification
Moving city, country or continent
Retiring from work or changing career/role significantly
Back to work after being a carer
Finalising a divorce
Setting up a business venture however you define (opening your flower shop, floating your company on the stock exchange, getting your 100th dog walking client, whatever).

What else?

I don't want presents for these things, though. I already have too much stuff. The last thing I want when I'm moving house or negotiating other life changes is more stuff. I also don't want to waste good money buying things for other people who also have too many things and don't need any more.

@Hardbackwriter

they will just buy for the children (eg £xx each for two kids) rather than kids and parents (eg £yy for each parent and £xx for each child) as the parents can then just but them a gift in return to the value of £xx (x2) rather than (£xx (x2) + £yy (x2))+/- divided by two, depending if the childless sibling has a partner they buy for.

Ah, the true spirit of giving - when you're using equations to work it out. God forbid you spend a quid more on someone than they spent on you.

It embarrassing for people if you spend excessively and they can’t afford to reciprocate so absolutely important to ensure with each gift giving/receiving diad it’s balanced financially. Why would you want your friends and family to feel pressure to keep up with what you feel comfortable spending? It’s normal that people would unless they are grabby people.

they will just buy for the children (eg £xx each for two kids) rather than kids and parents (eg £yy for each parent and £xx for each child)

Is this not more about convenience than finances? I’m happy for people to just buy for my DC. I wouldn’t expect anyone to buy for DC, myself and DH (several gifts to choose, order, wrap, deliver/post) compared to one from us. Regardless of how much we spend on their gift, buying gifts for multiple people and remembering all their birthdays is a headache!

Your pet or job isn't the same as having a child OP. Even though my cat is my baby. It does not compare. YABU

@FireflyRainbow

Your pet or job isn't the same as having a child OP. Even though my cat is my baby. It does not compare. YABU

Has OP said it’s exactly the same? A new job isn’t the same as a new dog which isn’t the same as a wedding which isn’t the same as having a baby which isn’t the same as graduating. The common theme is they’re all big life events. And tbh I’d feel a big annoyed if I was always investing time money and energy into celebrating the life events of my close friends but they never did in return because my own events weren’t a baby.

@HikeForward

they will just buy for the children (eg £xx each for two kids) rather than kids and parents (eg £yy for each parent and £xx for each child)

Is this not more about convenience than finances? I’m happy for people to just buy for my DC. I wouldn’t expect anyone to buy for DC, myself and DH (several gifts to choose, order, wrap, deliver/post) compared to one from us. Regardless of how much we spend on their gift, buying gifts for multiple people and remembering all their birthdays is a headache!

It is indeed! Even ignoring the financial aspect, relevant thought that is, the time and effort and thoughtfulness is also a consideration and usually the person with no children will end up putting in considerably more effort.

I can see some posters have family without children who don't bother - I get it, maybe they worked all this out faster than the rest of us and didn't bother or maybe they are just thoughtless. Who knows?!

I know you’re all sold on the “selfish greedy grasping mothers” thing, so I won’t convince you, but I’m not sure it really works out the way you seem to think it does in many cases. People tell me they would like to buy my children presents for their birthdays etc ans ask me what my children would like, their budget etc, and I make suggestions. It’s lovely that they want to buy my children things, but it’s absolutely not necessary and I do all the thinking, online links to places to buy things and so on. Often it is sent to me and I wrap it. As I say, it’s lovely that people think of my children, but the time and effort is much more mine in many cases, perhaps appropriately as they are my children, but still, not as you present. It won’t be seen that way, I am sure.

I have repeatedly said that we should certainly re-evaluate what we as a society celebrates and values, but I’m not sure that vilifying mothers is the solution.

“ I can see some posters have family without children who don't bother - I get it, maybe they worked all this out faster than the rest of us and didn't bother or maybe they are just thoughtless. Who knows?!”

And some of you clearly know some married and bechilded people who stopped making time and effort for their childfree and/or single friends and relatives. Maybe they were always selfish or maybe a wedding and parenthood made them that way, who knows?!

I buy new home/promotion/pet gifts for my friends, regardless of whether they are single/childless etc. Sometimes I buy them gifts "just because". Also in times of sadness such as bereavement.
I find your post a bit sad to be honest, I'm sorry you feel that way.
I've never had or been to a baby shower though, I don't like the idea of those.

But if you do any of these things, people would throw a party for you OP or buy you gifts.

They are major life events that usually incur massive costs for the people doing them. Getting a new job doesn’t cost you that- the financial reward is reward enough. I think it’s true too that until you become a parent you do not realise how utterly life-changing it is- psychologically and physically. That might sound condescending but to me it’s a fact- until you go through it you just cannot understand. Having a pet is utterly lovely, and teaches you how to be responsible for and to love someone else but the comparisons stop there.