To be miffed at all the presents for being a wife and mother

[Creamcustards]

Inspired by the baby shower thread.

What is it that makes us ‘reward’ getting married and having children with money and gifts?! I mean, surely the joy of the marriage / the child is enough!?

Yes, I am single and childfree. Maybe a little bit bitter?!! When I get a pet or a new job or there some other happy event in my life I don’t get showered with gifts / money!

Grr.

[FTEngineerM]

Because growing a human and getting it from inside to outside, however you do it, is an enormous life changing event that I didn’t understand previously. Now I do.

I thought my friend was crazy when she cried when I got pregnant, now I get it totally.

[Peaplant20]

@JudgeJ that’s a really sad way to look at things. They’re supposed to be an opportunity/ excuse to have fun/ see friends and family/ relax and celebrate. No one is obliged to go if they don’t want to.

[HereComesATractor]

I am the generation that is currently getting married and having babies and most people are not doing all those things, and if they are doing some of them, presents certainly aren’t usual beyond wedding and baby shower/birth.

[JudgeJ]

@winifredwells

But married mothers expect gifts for getting married, every time they procreate, possibly even christenings, children’s birthdays and Christmas etc etc too and not reciprocate with other gifts that balance the imbalance back up.

😂

you do need better friends, it's just you I am afraid!

I have noticed that my children's friends now seem to have engagement parties, weddings, gender reveal parties, baby showers, birth, all of which seem to need a significant expenditure, as well as the inevitable three-day-event stag/hen does. Glad I'm not young any more.

[Whitegrapewine]

Celebration of someone doesn't have to be financial or involve buying someone tat they don't need. Making a video of friends and family saying congrats, good luck in your new house, would show care and love.

[DroopyDaff]

I assume you won’t want any wedding presents when and if you get married then OP? Or any baby gifts when and if you have a baby or adopt?

Never had a baby shower (wish they were a thing when I had mine though!) and we already had a house when we got married but I appreciated the thought behind the gifts anyway.

[Bitofanexpert]

But if you do any of these things, people would throw a party for you OP or buy you gifts.

They are major life events that usually incur massive costs for the people doing them. Getting a new job doesn’t cost you that- the financial reward is reward enough. I think it’s true too that until you become a parent you do not realise how utterly life-changing it is- psychologically and physically. That might sound condescending but to me it’s a fact- until you go through it you just cannot understand. Having a pet is utterly lovely, and teaches you how to be responsible for and to love someone else but the comparisons stop there.

[NellePorter]

I buy new home/promotion/pet gifts for my friends, regardless of whether they are single/childless etc. Sometimes I buy them gifts "just because". Also in times of sadness such as bereavement.
I find your post a bit sad to be honest, I'm sorry you feel that way.
I've never had or been to a baby shower though, I don't like the idea of those.

[HereComesATractor]

“ I can see some posters have family without children who don't bother - I get it, maybe they worked all this out faster than the rest of us and didn't bother or maybe they are just thoughtless. Who knows?!”

And some of you clearly know some married and bechilded people who stopped making time and effort for their childfree and/or single friends and relatives. Maybe they were always selfish or maybe a wedding and parenthood made them that way, who knows?!

[HereComesATractor]

I know you’re all sold on the “selfish greedy grasping mothers” thing, so I won’t convince you, but I’m not sure it really works out the way you seem to think it does in many cases. People tell me they would like to buy my children presents for their birthdays etc ans ask me what my children would like, their budget etc, and I make suggestions. It’s lovely that they want to buy my children things, but it’s absolutely not necessary and I do all the thinking, online links to places to buy things and so on. Often it is sent to me and I wrap it. As I say, it’s lovely that people think of my children, but the time and effort is much more mine in many cases, perhaps appropriately as they are my children, but still, not as you present. It won’t be seen that way, I am sure.

I have repeatedly said that we should certainly re-evaluate what we as a society celebrates and values, but I’m not sure that vilifying mothers is the solution.

[Mmn654123]

@HikeForward

they will just buy for the children (eg £xx each for two kids) rather than kids and parents (eg £yy for each parent and £xx for each child)

Is this not more about convenience than finances? I’m happy for people to just buy for my DC. I wouldn’t expect anyone to buy for DC, myself and DH (several gifts to choose, order, wrap, deliver/post) compared to one from us. Regardless of how much we spend on their gift, buying gifts for multiple people and remembering all their birthdays is a headache!

It is indeed! Even ignoring the financial aspect, relevant thought that is, the time and effort and thoughtfulness is also a consideration and usually the person with no children will end up putting in considerably more effort.

I can see some posters have family without children who don't bother - I get it, maybe they worked all this out faster than the rest of us and didn't bother or maybe they are just thoughtless. Who knows?!

[VanillaCokeZero]

@FireflyRainbow

Your pet or job isn't the same as having a child OP. Even though my cat is my baby. It does not compare. YABU

Has OP said it’s exactly the same? A new job isn’t the same as a new dog which isn’t the same as a wedding which isn’t the same as having a baby which isn’t the same as graduating. The common theme is they’re all big life events. And tbh I’d feel a big annoyed if I was always investing time money and energy into celebrating the life events of my close friends but they never did in return because my own events weren’t a baby.

[FireflyRainbow]

Your pet or job isn't the same as having a child OP. Even though my cat is my baby. It does not compare. YABU

[HikeForward]

they will just buy for the children (eg £xx each for two kids) rather than kids and parents (eg £yy for each parent and £xx for each child)

Is this not more about convenience than finances? I’m happy for people to just buy for my DC. I wouldn’t expect anyone to buy for DC, myself and DH (several gifts to choose, order, wrap, deliver/post) compared to one from us. Regardless of how much we spend on their gift, buying gifts for multiple people and remembering all their birthdays is a headache!

[Mmn654123]

@Hardbackwriter

they will just buy for the children (eg £xx each for two kids) rather than kids and parents (eg £yy for each parent and £xx for each child) as the parents can then just but them a gift in return to the value of £xx (x2) rather than (£xx (x2) + £yy (x2))+/- divided by two, depending if the childless sibling has a partner they buy for.

Ah, the true spirit of giving - when you're using equations to work it out. God forbid you spend a quid more on someone than they spent on you.

It embarrassing for people if you spend excessively and they can’t afford to reciprocate so absolutely important to ensure with each gift giving/receiving diad it’s balanced financially. Why would you want your friends and family to feel pressure to keep up with what you feel comfortable spending? It’s normal that people would unless they are grabby people.

[SelkieQualia]

@Whitegrapewine

I like the poster who said we celebrate times of opportunity and danger, liminal moments, risk. The celebration isn't for the individual but so that the social fabric remains strong.

Our list of those moments is kind of outdated though. I do think having a child is the most absolute watershed, as is the death of a parent or spouse, and the community does need to come together around a person then.

But getting married - perhaps not so much now? When it's not pegged to financials or daily life so much, it usually doesn't include you moving house, and it's not something that always lasts for ever. It does need a following wind of community support for success, though - perhaps that should be another criterion for social celebration.

Let's make a list of the 21st century moments of greatest change/potential/danger, which need support from others and where a solid tradition of a get-together & presents would help the whole community. I'd say...

Moving in with partner, esp. if any existing children are in the frame
Buying a property of your own for first time
Leaving full time education / achieving a signficant qualification
Moving city, country or continent
Retiring from work or changing career/role significantly
Back to work after being a carer
Finalising a divorce
Setting up a business venture however you define (opening your flower shop, floating your company on the stock exchange, getting your 100th dog walking client, whatever).

What else?

I don't want presents for these things, though. I already have too much stuff. The last thing I want when I'm moving house or negotiating other life changes is more stuff. I also don't want to waste good money buying things for other people who also have too many things and don't need any more.

[TorringtonDean]

You could always have a new pet party but then what if the marrieds got more pets than you? Where would it end?

The sort of weddings you are referring to are a bit of an arms race - it’s all got way over the top. A simple gift should be all that’s needed. And just because you aren’t heading towards marriage now it doesn’t mean you will never be. Or maybe people could have staying single parties?

A new baby is a person in itself and will be a member of your family for the rest of your life. One day that baby might bring you a present to your “50 years single” party? They might make you laugh or they might be a real misery. It’s just nice to celebrate the newcomer.

[HikeForward]

Do people actually want/expect gifts these days, unless you’re close enough to get them a gift they really want and use?

Sending flowers/chocolates in the post sounds so impersonal. And puts pressure on them to reciprocate.

I’m relieved I nolonger get overloaded with gift sets, flowers, cosmetics and things I don’t want. People often just buy for my DC or send a Happy Birthday FB message or E Card which is nice.

I work FT so evenings and weekends are precious time with my own DC, not remembering which distant cousin has a birthday coming up and what’s he into now as I haven’t seen him for 3 years?

[Whitegrapewine]

I like the poster who said we celebrate times of opportunity and danger, liminal moments, risk. The celebration isn't for the individual but so that the social fabric remains strong.

Our list of those moments is kind of outdated though. I do think having a child is the most absolute watershed, as is the death of a parent or spouse, and the community does need to come together around a person then.

But getting married - perhaps not so much now? When it's not pegged to financials or daily life so much, it usually doesn't include you moving house, and it's not something that always lasts for ever. It does need a following wind of community support for success, though - perhaps that should be another criterion for social celebration.

Let's make a list of the 21st century moments of greatest change/potential/danger, which need support from others and where a solid tradition of a get-together & presents would help the whole community. I'd say...

Moving in with partner, esp. if any existing children are in the frame
Buying a property of your own for first time
Leaving full time education / achieving a signficant qualification
Moving city, country or continent
Retiring from work or changing career/role significantly
Back to work after being a carer
Finalising a divorce
Setting up a business venture however you define (opening your flower shop, floating your company on the stock exchange, getting your 100th dog walking client, whatever).

What else?

[AmberItsACertainty]

I'm not explaining myself well. It's not a contradiction. I don't mean funding a lifestyle for the basics. Because everyone can afford the basics these days. I mean funding the extravagant lifestyle they want that's above and beyond the basics. And yes I've ditched most of those people now! I don't think they were good friends.

[HereComesATractor]

I think you need better friends to be honest. I don’t know anyone who has thrown weddings like that. I also don’t buy the “present in exchange for party” thing - that’s not the basis on which I throw any party and the concept is tacky. I buy presents because I like to, I don’t care if people don’t bring anything when I am the host (actually I wouldn’t notice if they didn’t but would think it lovely if they did).

I think wedding lists/paying for honeymoon etc are a slightly different kettle of fish/can of worms, but I don’t know anyone who has chosen to have a child without planning how they will afford the basics including clothing, a cot etc, and assuming that friends will cover that. This is what I mean by contradictory - you say you would be happy to buy things that people need but can’t afford, but that in itself is arguably “funding a lifestyle choice” because they couldn’t do it without your generosity. Your friends who can afford it will go ahead whether you choose to give a present or not. If anything, the old-fashioned way of needing help “setting up a home” is funding a lifestyle choice because they couldn’t do it without the help.

FWIW I don’t actually think “choice” was so simple back then (or now, even) - I’m just following the line of argument about “funding lifestyle choices”. The OP herself isn’t talking about things she needs, but the discrepancies between what aspects of life are celebrated and what aren’t, and I think it is a good point. However if I only ever gave presents that people need rather than want then I wouldn’t be turning up to a housewarming party with a bottle of wine and a card, it would be more like a bottle of sink unblocker and a radiator key.

[AmberItsACertainty]

I guess it came from my friends weddings HereComesATractor. One was minted and had everything they needed. Or rather he did. She wanted to put her own stamp on things, it being his house. So along with the wedding invitation came a wedding list with the cheapest gift being £60 which was half a week's wages for me. It very much was funding a lifestyle choice. And there was no "oh don't worry about a gift if you're skint" attitude. She openly admitted she used the wedding gift list to give the house a makeover. The other weddings I've been to have had a post box and requests for cash or a wedding gift list that is all "experiences" you can buy them for their honeymoon, including the flights and hotel etc! I did feel resentful because I just couldn't afford it without going without myself. I guess that's what I mean really. If it's just a celebration then I should have been able to buy a gift I thought my friends would like and that was within my budget. Or could they perhaps accept that my gift to them was my presence at their party? But in every circumstance it was clear that's not what was expected.

If I get married I don't like a fuss so it's a quiet affair and knowing what it's like to be broke I wouldn't dream of sending a gift list with an invite. I'm not a gift giving type of person in general. It's not how I show I care about someone and I generally prefer not to receive them myself, though I accept them with thanks if they're offered.

Maybe it's because I don't see a wedding as this big fabulous day the happy couple are throwing for their guests but rather something they're doing for themselves. They're the ones who want a party at a flash venue, not me. So when they sort of expect payment towards it in the form of gifts it does feel like I'm funding their lifestyle. I'm only there all day because they've requested the pleasure of my company. It's great to see someone get married, but I'd prefer to leave after the church service if it was socially acceptable.

In the days when the newly married couple were moving into a barely furnished first home with nothing much, I'd be more happy to go without myself to get them a useful gift that they needed. Same with children that just came along because you were married and that's what happened, if have more sympathy for the parents needing a cot, baby clothes etc. When everyone is in their late 20s onwards, two households merging into one so they've got plenty of stuff already and babies have been a choice after working out how much maternity leave/few years childcare break they can afford to take, I don't feel they need the gifts. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well. I'm not tight, I'd house clothe and feed a friend who turned up on my doorstep in a pickle. But I wouldn't be guarantor on an expensive place or provide a deposit, just because they didn't like renting the cheaper place.

[HereComesATractor]

I find the “funding a lifestyle choice” angle a bit odd. If these days it’s no longer about helping people with the basics as they start out, then you aren’t funding a lifestyle choice at all. You aren’t saving them any money by buying them a photo frame or giving their baby a teddy.

I’m completely on board with “let’s not perpetuate outdated/patriarchal values by only celebrating life events that exclude people who are single or child free”, but it’s contradictory to say that these days people don’t need support with starting out and also that giving presents today is funding a lifestyle choice.

[AmberItsACertainty]

@Saltyslug

Wedding gift is in exchange for meal/special day

This is such bullshit 😂 Why do people think their wedding is a special day for anyone other than them? It's an awkward social obligation that one can't really get out of without causing offence, it goes on for far too long, you have to make polite chit chat with people you hardly know or have never met, listen to what are usually boring speeches, then try to enjoy a disco whilst tired and with tired children milling around everywhere crying and acting up. I'll willingly celebrate someone's happy occasion, but I'm doing it for them not for me. Often at a friend's wedding you only know the happy couple, who are obviously so wrapped up in each other and accepting congratulations from family and trying to ensure it all runs smoothly, that you barely get to speak to them. It's honestly not a good day/night out.

[AmberItsACertainty]

I think it's old fashioned and came from a place in time where the newly married had nothing and probably the same for new parents. And a time perhaps when contraception wasn't really a thing, so children weren't so much of a choice.

I agree today it's all just an excuse for a big party, which is fine and I'll happily celebrate the good news, but I've decided I'm not going to be buying gifts/donating money for people under these circumstances any more. I'm not that well off and these days neither marriage nor children are inevitable, so I don't think it's too much to expect people to fund their own lifestyle choices.