When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

Reminds me of this song from Crazy Ex-girlfriend.

I don't live in Canada so there is no point using that as an example. I live in the UK I coukd easily choose a 4x4 as most people would say that's what alot of Londkners have. Yet I didnt pick what the London society would influence me to do.

So to say that society influences my choices is wrong.

You not living in Canada is exactly why there's a point in using it as an example. If you lived in a society, like small town Canada, where trucks were the norm, you'd be more likely to go for that norm. Unless you think Canadians are genetically wired to love trucks more than Brits do, there must be a cultural or societal element to those decisions?

@SelkieIntegrated

Well ''society'' hasn't convinced the majority of us that inflatable lips or eyelashes like antlers or orange skin or slug eyebrows are desirable.

So we are clearly able to filter the messages coming towards us to some degree.

I get what the other poster said about the internalised male gaze though. But even with a group of other women there is a social capital to not looking shit.

What'd be the benefit to not doing your hair/makeup and dressing well if you enjoy it and don't find it a burden?

Anything I do for looks, I enjoy doing it. I don't do anything I find tedious.

Your comment about social capital is spot on, and whilst I think most of it is derived from male determined ideals, it is absolutely perpetuated by women as well, probably because of how we are conditioned.

@Siepie

I don't live in Canada so there is no point using that as an example. I live in the UK I coukd easily choose a 4x4 as most people would say that's what alot of Londkners have. Yet I didnt pick what the London society would influence me to do.

So to say that society influences my choices is wrong.

You not living in Canada is exactly why there's a point in using it as an example. If you lived in a society, like small town Canada, where trucks were the norm, you'd be more likely to go for that norm. Unless you think Canadians are genetically wired to love trucks more than Brits do, there must be a cultural or societal element to those decisions?

Your so determined to prove your point you literally cannot even think why that's the case.

Canadians buying big trucks mostly live in rural areas, where they could esp at night end up hitting deer or even a bear. Which type of vehicle do you think is going to withstand that? That's right a truck

Not to mentioned the amount of snow they get. Again which vehicle is best for that? Again a truck.

Living in Canada esp in rural areas and where they burn alot of wood for fires which vehicle is best for hauling materials, thats right a truck.

None of that has to do with society influencing choices

Its literally based on environmental factors.

If you still don't get it then quite frankly you never will.

But just to add, it's bloody hard work to try and tackle these conditioned thoughts, so I mostly just do what makes me happy and feel good, even if it is superficial or societally influenced.

I've got a nose like Alan Rickman's and no amount of meta feminism is going to stop me wanting to slice it off my face! Those negative thoughts are too deep rooted and probably wouldn't ever shift with a lifetime of therapy- much more work than a 30 minute nose job.

It's good to acknowledge the impact patriarchal ideals have on our actions and self esteem, but sneering at people who conform because it genuinely makes them feel confident/desired is completely unnecessary.

Anybody who says women should love the loose skin, stretch marks and overhang if they only thought nice thoughts about it, clearly doesn't have one.

If they did, they'd know about the painful dragging sensation when you turn over in bed too quickly, the tenderness of atrophic scar tissue which means clothes hurt, how painful it is when you run or catch it in a zip and the horrendous burning and itching from underwear catching and rubbing against the underside in hot weather that you dare not rub or scratch because the skin tears so easily.

But yay, tiger stripes. I've been fertile. And fat. Go me, I had a functioning uterus and for that I should be prouder than a woman who hasn't fulfilled the societal role and destiny of females. Such empowerment. Empowerment in only being able to wear loose clothing that covers it. Clothing that is 'modest' because that's more comfortable/less painful. Even if I want to wear something else. I should be happy with my female appointed role and body.

Fuck that shit. If I could afford it, it would have been cut off years ago.

If you still don't get it then quite frankly you never will.

I'm not sure why you're being so aggressive.

There are definitely pros to trucks in rural Canada. But my friend there and most of her friends were driving trucks to school from age 15, within their own towns. They were unlikely to hit bears on the school run, but the prevalence of trucks (yes, due to environmental factors) makes it a normal thing for people to buy even if they don't personally need such a powerful vehicle.

I'm not criticising your choices. In fact, I make very similar ones in terms of books, cars and cycling! I just don't think anyone makes choices completely in a vacuum.

YABU. Just like I get up and put my makeup on, do my hair and get dressed even when I know nobody will see me and I’m not going to leave the house all day. Because it makes me feel good.

I’ve also had plastic surgery and I don’t care who the fuck sees me, I can see myself and I feel much more confident looking at myself and in my body than before. Nobody else can really see what I’ve had done unless I take my clothes off.

I agree with you, OP. I still do a lot of those things, although I'd never have surgery or anything injected into my face. I enjoy wearing make up and clothes I think look good, but the enjoyment is not really why I do it, and it's definitely not 'for me'.

No @Tiggerishigh I have a significant diastasis. There's torn mesh under it and a horrible gap. It's not a stretch mark ffs!

Which is not to say medically it's a necessity to close it, just that it is horrible.

@CabernetSoWhat

I think they mean the idea originated from within rather than to please someone else, e.g., a partner who has spent 5 years telling them their breasts aren't big enough.

Yes that’s what I was going to say. I’d love to have my teeth straightened with Invisalign or something, I hate them. And if I ever got them sorted I might say I was doing it for myself, and what I’d mean is that I wasn’t doing it because DH spends his time making comments about how I should. obviously there’s a societal influence, which is why straight teeth would make me feel more confident, but the benefit would be my confidence, rather than, for example DH’s approval, so that’s why I’d say I was doing it for myself.

This thread is such women bashing crap it’s unreal. I hate when women like the OP use pseudo-feminism to attack other women.
Making out you’re weak if you wear make up, high heels or get plastic surgery. Like you’re a lesser woman.

The best feminists don’t judge other women for making choices OP. If doing anything of the above makes a woman feel more comfortable then who are you to tell her she is wrong? I’m guessing when you buy clothes you just go for what’s comfortable and never because you like the look of things? Because if you’ve ever bought something because you thought it suited you then you are just as guilty of your own accusation as someone who has surgery.

Stop judging other women for their choices and trying to put them down to make yourself feel high and mighty. You aren’t superior because you don’t wear make up or high heels.

@Tiggerishigh

What I'm saying is that I don't care if people do all the stuff but don't pretend it is all for you and that your choice is not a result of others perceptions and societies ideals, that is my point.

I had exactly this conversation with my DD recently. Yes, it's fine for girls to wear short skirts and high heels if they want, but why do they want to? Because they've grown up thinking it's attractive (by a patriarchal society with lots of men who want to stare at your legs while putting you down for dressing like a tart)

^This thread is such women bashing crap it’s unreal. I hate when women like the OP use pseudo-feminism to attack other women.
Making out you’re weak if you wear make up, high heels or get plastic surgery. Like you’re a lesser woman.^

Exactly!

"I whitened my teeth because it makes me feel good"
"You only say that because that's what society has brought you up to believe."

Cool, so I bet you don't brush your teeth then because that's what society thinks you should do.

It has been really interesting to read the thread, despite what some of you say I am interested to hear others perspectives.

People keep bringing up makeup and other things like losing weight, that wasn't really my point.
I was talking about altering bodies through surgery, filling lips and breasts. Wearing shoes that mean you can't run and make your feet hurt as well as causing back issues, wearing underwear that is not comfortable.

Of course most things we do are influenced by society, these things seem painful and uncomfortable though. I was just interested in why people, nearly always women, say it isn't for anyone but themselves.

As a PP said in many years we will look back and find lip fillers as strange as corsets and foot binding and probably feel sorry for the people who felt they had to do it to make them feel happy.

@sbhydrogen

^This thread is such women bashing crap it’s unreal. I hate when women like the OP use pseudo-feminism to attack other women. Making out you’re weak if you wear make up, high heels or get plastic surgery. Like you’re a lesser woman.^

Exactly!

"I whitened my teeth because it makes me feel good"
"You only say that because that's what society has brought you up to believe."

Cool, so I bet you don't brush your teeth then because that's what society thinks you should do.

Brushing teeth stops decay and pain.

Whitening teeth is aesthetic.

It's not the same

Op thinks she alone SEES, but she isn't acknowledging that there are social, emotional and financial benefits to looking good. The need to belong is so deeply ingrained. Is op suggesting she's hacked this?

I agree with you OP, but many if the people who do this don’t understand the connection between patriarchy and societal expectations and those are the same people who get very, very defensive. They are also the same people who conflate aesthetic surgery with procedures done for improving health. For example someone was including mastectomy in the same category aesthetic surgery. I get lots of stuff done such as hair, nails, hair removal. Would I do them in a world where there is no capital attached to having these things done? Of course not.

@SelkieIntegrated that is exactly the point. So people aren’t doing it for themselves, they are doing it to obtain the social, emotional and financial benefits. Should these benefits not be there, they would not do it. They are doing it to benefit themselves, but not for themselves.

Brushing teeth stops decay and pain.

Whitening teeth is aesthetic.

It's not the same

That may be so, but it's still something that society dictates. You could choose not to do it. If you don't brush your teeth, you're disgusting and weird to other people, with the added bonus of your teeth suffering.

@Tiggerishigh I also understand what you are saying in that you can’t understand why you do things that cause pain but you are refusing to acknowledge that almost everything else we do is also influenced by society in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.

We could say exactly the same about smoking for example. Of course we can look back now and say that it was a fucking stupid thing to do that damages our health and feel sorry for people who chose to do it and now can’t stop. But did anyone choose to do it in a vacuum, devoid of social influence? No of course not.

To an extent, of course yes!

But for example, I have Botox for my frown lines - one was really pronounced, and was there all the time. I felt self conscious because it basically looked like I was permanently frowning.... that was 100% for me. But in a world without mirrors I guess you’re right I probably wouldn’t care. It is because society told me so? Maybe, but I was also bothered because I felt like it affected my facial expression so much - always looking a bit angry.

I haven’t dressed for other people since I was 16 though .

It’s a scale really - lip fillers and nose surgery are far more extreme (and risky) than getting your hair coloured and styled. But on a biological level we subconsciously evaluate other people’s appearances all the time!

I guess fillers, plastic surgery etc have facilitated changes we never considered possible before.

I agree, I wouldn't give a shit how I looked if I was on a desert island. I would happily wear no make up and live in sweats but unfortunately I'm too nervous to do so in the real world for fear of being judged or perceived as ugly. I don't know why I care so much or feel so much pressure but I do. It's shit.

Nope, you're wrong.
I have huge breasts, always have since age 13. All the way through school they were a 34G, now in adulthood and after 1 baby, they're a 32JJ. They cause me incredible back pain, I can't sleep comfortably, I can't run (even with two sports bras, they hurt), underwear is hideously expensive and rarely fits well, I had to be on high alert breastfeeding in case I smothered my baby. And now, at the grand old age of 25, they're huge AND saggy from doing 14m breastfeeding.
So many countless other issues. Can't wear anything low cut without being called 'slutty', can't wear anything too high (think turtle neck jumpers etc in winter) as makes my breasts look hideous. Can't wear button up tops unless they are a size 18-20 (I'm a 14) as they pop open.

Every man I've ever been with has found my breasts 'sexy', so I don't want to change them for me. I don't have a real issue with how they look, it's how they affect every aspect of my life.

If I was on a desert island, I would want a breast reduction even more than I do now, as I likely wouldn't have supportive bras, and would overheat. Not for men, or society, for me.

YABU.