When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

Was meant to say
Every man I've ever been with has found my breasts 'sexy', so I don't want to change them for MEN.

There are things I do, ostensibly because I like the aesthetic. I have my hair cut and highlighted regularly, and in lockdown have found it annoying to see my roots grow out. I like the way I look with a bit of make up on. I like the smooth feel of freshly shaved legs. I used to wear ridiculously high heels but always go barefoot at home. However, if I were on a desert island with no-one else, I could happily live without doing any of those things, so definitely a huge part of that is because I want to look "good"/socially acceptable to others.

I wouldn't have facial plastic surgery because my identity is too bound up in my face, flaws and all. I probably wouldn't have a tummy tuck even if we could afford it without it making a hole in our savings, because I'd rather not have an general anaesthetic etc. If a fairy could wave a magic wand and make me 2 dress sizes smaller and 4 inches taller, I wouldn't say no though. But again, on the desert island? Probably wouldn't care.

Not necessarily.
I would still want/need a boob job in the middle of the desert as they are causing me severe back problems!

@PurplePinkParade - I’m so with you! Mine are 36 KK/34L and so frigging painful!!!

The accusation that feminists think they’re better than other women who make different choices is bogus.

What feminism argues IMO is that one can’t help but be influenced by society. We all are, feminists and non-feminists alike. It’s natural and normal to want the approval of others.

But the lie that we have been gaslighted into believing is that we are not doing these things for others’ approval but for ourselves.

It’s very obvious to me why: the beauty industry knows that it is no longer socially acceptable to advertise beauty products to us as making us more attractive to men so they sell it to under the guise of doing it for ourselves. They have dressed it up as female empowerment as a kind of liberal choice feminism.

I shave my legs. It makes me feel more confident and less ugly. Who has given me the idea that it will make me more confident and less ugly? Why are hairy legs considered unattractive in a woman?

The message I’m getting from the OP is “do what you want. But don’t fool yourself into believing you’re not influenced by external factors”

I would still want/need a boob job in the middle of the desert as they are causing me severe back problems!

Which is about lessening pain, which really is for yourself! I hope you find some relief.

I chose to alter my body through surgery for me.
Had it done through the NHS after appeals too.
Fucking come at me with your judgemental bollocks.

I don't wear uncomfortable clothes or shoes, you don't need to.

I would still have my hair done even if I was in solitary confinement and no one else would see me, I find grey hair on me absolutely depressing.

I would also find it depressing to dress like a granny or be "mumsy".

I get dressed, and do my bed and keep my house tidy for me, even if no-one will see anything. If it was for someone else, technically I could slob around in grubby clothes but I don't like that.

So basically OP you are talking crap.

Anyone making nasty judgement has issues or insecurities. Happy people don't care.

So what's your problem OP? Do you feel jealous or threaten about your own appearance and find it easier to deal with them by trying to put others down?

Are you made insecure by colleagues, neighbours, school mums who look great?

@Lessthanaballpark if you read what I said, I called it pseudo-feminism, not feminism. Women can make their own choices. Some choose to adhere to societies beauty norms. Others don’t. But judging others for their choice or pretending that you’re better then then because you recognise that you know they’re only doing it because society told them to is arrogant crap.

I don't think OP is referring to procedures which you need for genuine medical reasons - for example a breast reduction or perhaps rhinoplasty because you can't breathe through your nose properly.

I agree with OP. Everything I do to make "myself" feel better is likely due to society's beauty standards.

There are things I would like to have but have chosen not to because I have two daughters and I don't want them growing up and wanting to change something about themselves which may be influenced by my choices.

For example I'd like a boob job purely to make them a bit bigger and fuller. I'd like a nose job to straighten the bump in my nose. But small boobs and bumpy noses are features my daughters are likely to inherit and I don't want to influence any insecurity.

That being said, it could be argued that grooming myself and wearing make up most days could be influential on my children so perhaps I'm picking and choosing.

@Dandelionsandskylarks

This thread is such women bashing crap it’s unreal. I hate when women like the OP use pseudo-feminism to attack other women. Making out you’re weak if you wear make up, high heels or get plastic surgery. Like you’re a lesser woman.

The best feminists don’t judge other women for making choices OP. If doing anything of the above makes a woman feel more comfortable then who are you to tell her she is wrong? I’m guessing when you buy clothes you just go for what’s comfortable and never because you like the look of things? Because if you’ve ever bought something because you thought it suited you then you are just as guilty of your own accusation as someone who has surgery.

Stop judging other women for their choices and trying to put them down to make yourself feel high and mighty. You aren’t superior because you don’t wear make up or high heels.

Agreed, and the faux naivety “oh I was just wondering”

No, you just won’t to point out how morally superior you think your feminism is while putting other women down.

You aren’t superior because you don’t wear make up or high heels.

indeed.

You are just shorter.

As a PP said in many years we will look back and find lip fillers as strange as corsets and foot binding and probably feel sorry for the people who felt they had to do it to make them feel happy.

Ohh, no you can't bring foot binding into it- that was a horrific and debilitating practice forcibly carried out without anaesthesia on children with no choice in the matter, I would say it's up there with FGM.

It's nowhere near comparible with cosmetic procedures like lip fillers conducted with anaesthesia on consenting adults.

No OP, you cannot compare lip fillers to feet binding. I'm with @gotosleepbabyplease on that one.

Foot binding is a practice forced upon women and children with no choice and no anaesthesia. It's utterly barbaric and up there with FGM.

I willingly book that appointment and sit in that chair.

You're taking it too far now.

And what’s the point of such a thread anyway? So other women can read it and be ‘enlightened’ by the fact that they are conforming to societies demands? Or to make them feel like that thing they enjoyed doing, that thing that made them feel good, is now tainted because it turns out they’re only doing it for men? It’s women bashing, end of.

Even if one is superficial and the other disabling for life, a better comparison would be with pierced ears on a baby or a child.

@k1233

You're wrong on the uncomfortable shoes line. I love beautiful shoes - despise flats as they are generally fugly. I love shoes so much I dream about beautiful shoes. I wear my beautiful shoes and look at them in any reflective surface I can find. So no, I don't adore shoes because others tell me to. Indeed where I work is predominantly fugly flats. Whenever I meet someone, first thing I do is check out their shoes.

You'd love me. I'm a Dr Martens and Converse devotee

I had orthodontic treatment, which although it had a massive cosmetic benefit, really was for myself. The reason it was for me, was to enable me to eat without pain. Like biting into an apple like a normal person.

You'd love me. I'm a Dr Martens and Converse devotee grin

so am I.

I am also a Jimmy Choo and the likes devoted. It's amazing how different an outfit looks with DM or Hight heels

And on the point of the thread ...

Yes of course we are influenced by what's around us. We are human animals. Our clothes and shoes are (usually) made by someone else and to their specifications. Not much of what we do or say is original.

And yes, a lot of this will be based around social customs, practices and conventions related to 'gender', which is wholly a human construct albeit a powerful one. Body hair removal is one I've succumbed: it's my personal preference and helps me feel cleaner and fresher, but when you think about it it's a silly practice. I got that idea from somewhere; it hasn't developed in isolation. Likewise the cultural connotations attached to piercings and tattoos.

But unless these things go to extreme degrees that deform the body (foot-binding, waist-training that displaces the spleen and ribs and makes it hard even to breathe, silly shoes that tip you off balance and are misshapen for the human foot) I don't particularly care. A feminist can shave her legs and still recognise that to an extent, she's been seduced by the patriarchy. As far as I'm concerned, people's clothing/grooming preferences don't require explanation.

@AmazingBouncingFerret - you look great. That's the sort of difference that can transform someone's life and I'd love to do this to the paunch left over from my C-section, which I loathe.

The first pic - I love the waistband and colour of those jeans. Mind if I ask what brand they are?

(About influencing by what other people wear! Of course we are).

If there was no audience there'd be no point

Precisely 🤭

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I’d love to help you but I can’t remember! Those photos were taken about ten years ago!

@Lessthanaballpark

The accusation that feminists think they’re better than other women who make different choices is bogus.

What feminism argues IMO is that one can’t help but be influenced by society. We all are, feminists and non-feminists alike. It’s natural and normal to want the approval of others.

But the lie that we have been gaslighted into believing is that we are not doing these things for others’ approval but for ourselves.

It’s very obvious to me why: the beauty industry knows that it is no longer socially acceptable to advertise beauty products to us as making us more attractive to men so they sell it to under the guise of doing it for ourselves. They have dressed it up as female empowerment as a kind of liberal choice feminism.

I shave my legs. It makes me feel more confident and less ugly. Who has given me the idea that it will make me more confident and less ugly? Why are hairy legs considered unattractive in a woman?

The message I’m getting from the OP is “do what you want. But don’t fool yourself into believing you’re not influenced by external factors”

Thank you for this post, sums up my thoughts but in a much more articulate way than I could have written! I also get annoyed at the messaging that says we should enjoy doing these things, if you do enjoy whatever enhancing things that you do, fair play but we are sold the idea that we should all enjoy them and it is never a chore. ‘Pampering ‘ has a lot to answer for!