To think calling in sick for no sleep is a good enough reason?

[Rachelinaa]

I work in an office that's been open through most of lockdown due to admin we do being essential.
Recently one of my workmates has been calling in sick a lot because he hasn't been sleeping well as he's got a baby at home that won't sleep. I was shocked to hear other people at work saying they thought it was a ridiculous reason not to come to work and we've all had to come to work tired. But I thought they'd be able to see the difference between being tired and not sleeping at all. His baby has colic and the mum also works.
I've called in sick before for being too tired when my baby was a newborn and didn't sleep. I wondered what everyone else's thoughts on this was? I personally don't want someone driving to work if they're too tired to focus and I can't think that the boss would want someone in more likely to make mistakes.

The CEO of Lloyds needed to go on sick leave because of insomnia, and I'd doubt he's a slacker, lack of sleep is a real issue.

You also don't know what the situation is at home, his wife could be struggling with PND and he's trying to manage it all when he's out of work hours - he doesn't have to disclose that to coworkers.

That said, if it was someone on my team and it was 'just' a colicky newborn, I'd think it's reasonable for a brief period but then would be a regular sickness return discussion including looking at whether he needs to temporarily reduce paid hours etc, because having a newborn is not a disability.

If an otherwise reliable, hard-working employee rings in and is honest enough to say they haven't had enough sleep to make it through the workday I think that is a good enough reason.

Why would you want someone there who is exhausted and unable to work?

As for the gossiping arseholes - Well, I would think that colic doesn't last forever and It may be this colleague picking up the slack for me one day if my circumstances change.

I think it's fair, especially if there is a long commute involved. I remember when DS wasn't sleeping and I kept nearly causing accidents on my drive to and from work. It was pretty dangerous. I'm sure if I had a crash I'd have been in trouble for driving while so tired.

If it's all the time then they really need to come up with another solution, but occasionally, it's just one of those things.

Hmmm. Sleep deprivation with ds2 who cried on-and-off all night for months and no doctor or consultant seemed to be able to cure, bought me to my knees. Literally. I literally fell to my knees and pleaded for help.

But. I'm not sure this is the same thing.

If I had called in sick every time I didn't get any sleep at all I'd have missed so many days work!

Nothing to do with children but yes, back when they were all young too.

It's awful and yes I've almost nodded off at my desk but to me it's a suck it up or take annual leave scenario

He's not sick though. He should be using his annual leave, it's not like he's got anything else to do with it this year.

He should also be working out how to look after the baby and share sleep with his wife and I'd question whether she actually is at work, given they have a baby young enough to be keeping them up all night.

Sleep deprivation and extreme tiredness are really underrated and effect people differently. It would potentially be dangerous for him to drive and he would be unlikely to be productive at work. He will end up ill himself too if he’s not careful.
I do wonder why everyone knows his reason for being off sick though, unless he has told everyone himself of course. It will hopefully be a temporary thing that will resolve itself and as as this is not normally like him it must be bad for him to be off sick in the first place.

[quote giggly]@Embracingthechaos when I lived inIz you were actively encouraged to use your 10 days paid sick leave each year or it could role over the the next year. However I came from an employer in theUK who provided 6 months full pay and 6 months half pay within a 18 month period so I was never that impressed with the Ozzie system.
One of my coworkers had a broken leg and received Bombay after the first two weeks😳[/quote]
It’s all coming back to me now (been a while since I was working in The Old Country). You’re right - sickness provision in Australia is abysmal compared to public sector UK. I also get six months sick at full pay then a further six months on half pay, and even after that they’ll hold your job for you if you’re a good employee and your reason for absence is serious eg had a co-worker with breast cancer who was off for 14 months+ a few years ago. I think even private sector in the UK has statutory sick pay obligations more than 10 days per year, as long as the employee has been in post for a certain period.

Smiling wryly at the American PP who thinks her 10 days sick + 3 days personal is ‘supportive’. The US has one of the most notorious levels of presenteeism in the world because paid sickness and vacation time is so appallingly limited.

@user7891011

Just because some of you have insomnia and deal with lack of sleep everyday doesn't mean this guy can deal with it as well as you. You should all know the impact it can have on your mental health as well🤔 have some compassion. He has to be fully functioning to look after the baby at night also whereas you can just lie there not using energy. YANBU

Completely agree with this!

Also having a baby with frequent night wakings is VERY different to having a baby with colic who barely sleeps at all!! Maybe 20mins here and there if you’re lucky. Plus the entire night they’re awake they’re SCREAMING at you. This makes even sleeping in shifts impossible unless you live in a mansion!

I’m still haunted by the experience. He has my full sympathies.

I did have a moment a few weeks ago where I considered using a sick day after being up every night for a week with a vomiting toddler (you know the drill, stripping the bed at 3am, hosing down a toddler, trying to get the household back to sleep).

I was open on my team call that I was basically useless, but had too much to do. As it happens, later that week I was already 10% over my hours so took an afternoon nap and felt much better.

So, I can see the issue, but a tummy bug is a one off. A colicky baby is going to take months and a system for managing sleep in the house needs to be in place.

He's not sick though

How could you possibly know?

If you don't sleep all night you will be exhausted the next day; if you don't sleep for several nights you will feel ill and be disorientated so I think it is a valid reason for going off sick.

However, your colleague is brave to be truthful about this because a lot of people would not understand or be sympathetic. I think most would make something up as a reason for not coming in to work. I am not advocating lying, just being realistic.

The thing about colic is that it generally passes after a while so hopefully your colleague will be able to sleep before too long. He must have gone back to work early in his baby's life.

He has my sympathy and it is heartening to know he has at least one supporter, in you. It's a pity everyone in your firm has to know the reasons for his sick leave, it should be a confidential matter.

I think it depends on the job. My old office job is have gone in on no sleep. Now I'd hate to go to work feeling like that

Theres a difference between actually being diagnosed by a doctor with insomnia as a medical condition and missing sleep. The employee here doesn't seem to be sick but to be unfit for work.

If he dies receive a medical diagnosis, then there's the risk that once his sick leave provision in his contract of employment runs out, he could be sacked for being incapable to work.

Generally, missing sleep now and then isn't seen as sickness.

Every employee in Britain is entitled to 28 days paid holiday per year and often contractually to 5 or 6 weeks, sometimes plus bank holidays too. That is not the case in the US.

Being tired is not the same as being sick though is it? I work as a nurse and had my dc 15 months apart. I can remember days of dragging my arse into work to do a 15 hour day with very little sleep, it was hell but there you go my choice to have dc. Why should my colleagues have to cover and the NHS have to pay me sick leave when I am not actually sick?

I'd question whether she actually is at work, given they have a baby young enough to be keeping them up all night.

If only...

I've had far more sleepless nights after I returned to work than before with both of my children. Newborn sleep was in short chunks but manageable here. 6m plus, really large chunks of wakes in the nighy and more frequent waking began.

He has to find a better way of managing his tiredness with his wife, and also get used to just crashing on exhausted, as this otherwise may well last for years, not weeks or months.

We have never called in sick, and wouldn't, in the basis of tiredness, but it hits are flexible enough that we've slept some in the day to compensate then made up the hours.

@MadMadMadamMim

I've worked in many different places with many different people. I don't think I've ever worked with someone who took a lot of days off sick because the baby didn't sleep.

It's a pretty shit reason. Most workp!aces would have you on an absenteeism improvement plan after three separate sick calls in a rolling year.

That's why most of us just suck up the sleepless nights as parents.

An 'absenteeism improvement plan' is the most dystopian shit I've ever heard in my life.

"We're going to punish you for being a fallible human with a non-impenetrable immune system and make sure you know how we prefer our workers to be automata who never show weakness"

Being exhausted is going to make you unable to work properly in the same way that throwing up constantly would: you're not mentally on task, you're likely to require time to deal with the issue that is during the working day and - crucially - you're a human being who needs to deal with the physical effects of what's happening so that you can recover.

I would never in a million years bat an eyelid if someone told me they hadn't slept all night and needed to take a day. Nor do we track sick days taken - seems like ableist bullshit to me, and as we have several employees with chronic conditions I wouldn't want to anyway. IF someone was having a lot of days off for the same reason we might offer support, remind them about the company access to private healthcare scheme if they wanted it, or talk to them about how we could change their working hours to suit them. But those conversations are always about the benefit of the person first and if we can reach a solution that mutually benefits them and the business, great.

"Also having a baby with frequent night wakings is VERY different to having a baby with colic who barely sleeps at all!! Maybe 20mins here and there if you’re lucky. Plus the entire night they’re awake they’re SCREAMING at you. This makes even sleeping in shifts impossible unless you live in a mansion!

I’m still haunted by the experience. He has my full sympathies."

That was posted by MashaPotato.
I agree. I'm telling you, Ds2 screaming off-and-on, all night, every night, literally broke me. I'm very serious.

My first was an extremely wakeful baby. I returned to work after a year of an average of four hours’ broken sleep a night and it was still ongoing. So I am very sympathetic to him. It actually makes me feel quite tearful to see so many people on this thread acknowledging the toll it takes on your health. However, given the ongoing nature of it if I had taken sick days as a result of baby wakefulness I wouldn’t have worked a single day on my return from maternity leave, and that’s no good either. So I don’t know what the answer is.

So sad to see so much meanness here. As someone who had a very tough baby (I don't necessarily believe in 'colic', but it was HARD. Very little sleep, constant crying), and who has chronic insomnia as a result of this, I'd really hope my colleagues were more empathetic than most of you lot.

Sleep isn't a 'nice to have', it is absolutely essential for everything we do - memory, energy, decision making, mood, reaction times. We also all need different amounts. Sure, you might be able to drag yourself in on 3 hrs broken sleep and muddle through, but others 100% can't. It also massively depends on the job you do.

Must say though that it's a bit concerning that you are all discussing this man and his family issues amongst yourselves in the office though , you really should not know the reasons why he is off work. It should be between him and management, not the gossip brigade.
I do feel a bit sorry for him and his wife though as if they read this thread its outing , very obvious they are being discussed here.

DH went to work regularly on about 3 hours sleep after DS2 was born (DS 2 was a very ill baby who never slept more than an hour at a time and screamed if he wasn't being walked up and down.) DH lost his job within a year after 17 years in the same place. I doubt he was doing his job properly and it probably showed.

I was so tired at that time I hallucinated. I forgot where I lived.You wouldn't want someone in a position of responsibility feeling like that. I was offered a brilliant job when DS2 was 3 months old and sacked within a couple of months. Same reason.

I don't think it's an excuse. I went back to work when my breastfed baby was 9 months old. A lot of the time she was waking every hour every night to be fed. Only stopped when I weaned her at 1 and half! Was a walking zombie...but never took a day off for it!

@TangoWhiskyAlphaTango

Being tired is not the same as being sick though is it? I work as a nurse and had my dc 15 months apart. I can remember days of dragging my arse into work to do a 15 hour day with very little sleep, it was hell but there you go my choice to have dc. Why should my colleagues have to cover and the NHS have to pay me sick leave when I am not actually sick?

Agree there’s a difference between missing sleep due to an external reason like a baby and not sleeping due to insomnia or some other medical reason.

I get bouts of insomnia where I get less and less sleep over a number of days until I eventually have a night where I get no sleep at all. At that point I will usually take a day off sick as I’m not able to function. The only solutions for me are sleeping tablets combined with sleep hygiene and getting my anxiety under control. If there are two parents I imagine there are ways of working around a baby or small child who won’t sleep.

I’m in Australia and get 12 days of sick leave a year that accumulate. My sick leave bank is up to about 6.5 months in total. I’ve had people ask why I’ve bothered to build up so much as ‘what could you ever need that much sick leave for’ ( some people must have no imagination) and even encourage me to use more of it up! We needs medical certificate after more than 3 day in a row off or after for a single day after annual leave or a bank holiday. On the positive side we don’t have anything like the Bradford system and as long as you have leave available you can take a day or two off when you like as long as it doesn’t become an obvious habit.

I don't know about this chap, but if/when I don't sleep I do end up ill the next day. Nauseous, headache, diarrhea as well as dizzy and very slow reaction times.
I've muckled through a few days at work like that, but now I'm working for a company who really cares about employees (unlike my last company), if they thought I was coming to work feeling like that they'd send me straight home.

Imagine the grief this guy would get if he had a traffic accident coming into the office?