To think calling in sick for no sleep is a good enough reason?

[Rachelinaa]

I work in an office that's been open through most of lockdown due to admin we do being essential.
Recently one of my workmates has been calling in sick a lot because he hasn't been sleeping well as he's got a baby at home that won't sleep. I was shocked to hear other people at work saying they thought it was a ridiculous reason not to come to work and we've all had to come to work tired. But I thought they'd be able to see the difference between being tired and not sleeping at all. His baby has colic and the mum also works.
I've called in sick before for being too tired when my baby was a newborn and didn't sleep. I wondered what everyone else's thoughts on this was? I personally don't want someone driving to work if they're too tired to focus and I can't think that the boss would want someone in more likely to make mistakes.

I hate the culture here of treating grown adults like children. He should know better than his boss or colleagues whether he is fit to work or to drive. Look at all the people here who have been too tired to work but had to be sneaky and lie about it like bloody children.
We know sleep deprivation is torture, we know it causes other illnesses yet he should come to work to what? Kill some poor family on the roads or be sent home for falling asleep at his desk.

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, every year about 100,000 police-reported crashes involve drowsy driving. These crashes result in more than 1,550 fatalities and 71,000 injuries. The real number may be much higher, however, as it is difficult to determine whether a driver was drowsy at the time of a crash.

"Does being incapacitated to the point where it's unwise to go to work automatically make a person deserving of sick leave or excused absences? No, not when the condition is self-inflicted or lifestyle-related rather than caused by an illness or injury."

I don't think this distinction makes sense. Where does it end? Someone has a stomach ache so the occupational doctor comes to their house to see if it's caused by eating too much and therefore their own fault? Someone breaks their leg skiing - definitely their fault imo, but they will get time off and probably healthcare paid for if they get treated on the NHS. Someone is diabetic because they went through a period of eating too much sugar? So, the diabetes no longer counts as an illness?
Someone can't sleep because of anxiety. Is it their fault for not going to the doctor for their anxiety?

@SirenSays

I hate the culture here of treating grown adults like children. He should know better than his boss or colleagues whether he is fit to work or to drive. Look at all the people here who have been too tired to work but had to be sneaky and lie about it like bloody children. We know sleep deprivation is torture, we know it causes other illnesses yet he should come to work to what? Kill some poor family on the roads or be sent home for falling asleep at his desk.

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, every year about 100,000 police-reported crashes involve drowsy driving. These crashes result in more than 1,550 fatalities and 71,000 injuries. The real number may be much higher, however, as it is difficult to determine whether a driver was drowsy at the time of a crash.

Not safe to drive if you’re drunk either - is it ok to take a day off for that?

Lol I'm having trouble taking you seriously. What are you expecting me to say? No? They should come to work necking beer and throwing up on desks, that'll be productive.

When my youngest was born he didn't sleep through until he was 15 months. My husband didn't work and I was working full time.
I was the one who had to do all the nighttime stuff because my husband said he could never settle my son after he'd fed him so I always had to do some part of it and ended up doing all of it.
I have MS, experience excruciating pain 24/7 and am also a terrible insomniac and have never had more than 3hrs sleep per day/night in over 30yrs.
How many times did I call work to say I'd had a bad night? Twice. Did I call it 'sick'? No - I either made up my hours or took it as holiday.
Why do people today feel that they should have a day off work just because they've not slept well? That's a bad as saying they want a day off sick because they've got a hangover.
Hangovers are self- inflicted ..... so are babies!
In either case you should 'expect' what's coming and plan accordingly!!

@SirenSays

Lol I'm having trouble taking you seriously. What are you expecting me to say? No? They should come to work necking beer and throwing up on desks, that'll be productive.

I expect them to make arrangements so that they do not need to call in sick regularly due to a non sleeping baby - take sleep shifts, take unpaid leave - parental leave - he is not sick he is tired - he needs to take responsibility for his sleep.

I'd say of he is struggling then it would be worth him and his wife looking at what help and support is available to them. For example, can family help them out overnight or is even getting help from an organisation such as Homestart (fully vetted volunteers to help practically as needed) during afternooms/evenings so that he can then catch up on sleep.
I agree he shouldn't be driving if too tired to do so safely, but would a taxi be an option on a temporary basis, or getting the bus? My husband did this when our triplets were tiny as we were similarly struggling.

Here, here @TeacupDrama and @YoBeaches and @knitonedropone

People need to take care of themselves and its also in an employer's interest to retain good staff who need some support, even if that is to say this is no a sick day, but we can manage it sympathetically via WFH or TOIL or leave or whatever.

Totally agree about road accidents and tiredness. It's something that should be taken far more seriously. So tired you can barely see straight? Great - here, have this speeding chunk of metal and hurl it down a road/motorway whilst retaining dubious amounts of control/reaction times. What could be more sensible? Not just me and Teacupdrama saying that -

www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/driver-health

Estimates are that up to a quarter of fatal and serious accidents are related to driver fatigue.

"Where does it end? Someone has a stomach ache so the occupational doctor comes to their house to see if it's caused by eating too much and therefore their own fault? Someone breaks their leg skiing - definitely their fault imo, but they will get time off and probably healthcare paid for if they get treated on the NHS. Someone is diabetic because they went through a period of eating too much sugar? So, the diabetes no longer counts as an illness? Someone can't sleep because of anxiety. Is it their fault for not going to the doctor for their anxiety?"

This varies by employer, but for most, it would depend on the number of incidents and days missed. Someone who broke their leg skiing has a broken leg, which is a medical condition. If they're missing several weeks of work for that, the employer would expect a doctor's note saying so, which the employee would have no trouble providing. Someone who called off for a stomachache once or twice a week for an extended period would, past a point, be told they need a doctor's note. If the doctor says there's nothing wrong with them and they need to just stop eating so much spicy food, then the employer isn't going to let them keep calling in sick because they want curry for dinner twice a week. If Mr. New Dad wants to see a doctor for his sleep deprivation, he can do that, but I don't think it's going to help him much, because it's a lifestyle issue rather than a medical one.

Purple - you totally misunderstood my point. My point was what counts as an illness. Just because an illness may be self-inflicted, doesn't make it not an illness.
It wasn't about what your employer does. As you've pointed out yourself, someone would get a sick note for a broken leg even if it's their own fault, so fault doesn't come into it.

If that's a dig at me, you can jog on. I can count the number of dick days I've had on one hand and I've worked in the NHS for years. My colleagues on the other hand are always off sick for the most minor of things...or: ingrowing toenail for eg. Chronic lack of sleep is very debilitating, and can have very serious implications on mental and physical health. I don't need to be reminded of staff shortages within NHS....my department is forever short. The problem with the NHS is that it employs a LOT of LAZY people. It needs privatisation.

@Peppermintpatty24

If that's a dig at me, you can jog on. I can count the number of dick days I've had on one hand and I've worked in the NHS for years. My colleagues on the other hand are always off sick for the most minor of things...or: ingrowing toenail for eg. Chronic lack of sleep is very debilitating, and can have very serious implications on mental and physical health. I don't need to be reminded of staff shortages within NHS....my department is forever short. The problem with the NHS is that it employs a LOT of LAZY people. It needs privatisation.

All the stupid martyrs who turn up for work everyday will just take on the burden and the waiting lists will just get longer.

"My point was what counts as an illness. Just because an illness may be self-inflicted, doesn't make it not an illness. It wasn't about what your employer does. As you've pointed out yourself, someone would get a sick note for a broken leg even if it's their own fault, so fault doesn't come into it."

No, I understand your point. My point was that the number of incidents and stays is what matters there. A broken leg is a single incident. If someone was breaking a new bone every month and missing several weeks of work each time, then any employer would tell them they need to stop if they want to keep their job. They wouldn't tell them specifically "You can't go mountain-climbing anymore," but they'd would tell them they need to stop missing work. If their job is such that they can't safely do it with a broken bone, then that would mean they'd need to stop breaking bones.

Someone calling off one time for lack of sleep isn't a big deal, though it's kind of dumb of them to actually say that's the reason. It's when they do it over and over again that fault starts to come into it. If their job is such that they can't do it safely (or at all) without being well-rested, then keeping themselves in a sufficiently well-rested condition is part of the job. The hypothetical broken bone person made one questionable decision that made them unable to work. The sleep-deprived parent is doing it anew every night.

• ... incidents and days off. Ugh. :-P

@drinkplease

The parents need to sleep in shifts. Having a child that is autistic and can go for 3 or four days even with melatonin with no sleep at all I sympathise but tbh you just get on with it. Most mine has slept is 4 hours. I'd never consider that a reason to call in sick.

@drinkplease

By your very own words you imply that different people require different amounts of sleep. This much is true. As such, nobody can use their own sleep requirements to determine another person's needs. The person may have other anxiety issues intertwined with the sleep deprivation, and in combination, more sleep would be required. Only a medical doctor could decide, not people with idle gossip.

@Harmonypuss

When my youngest was born he didn't sleep through until he was 15 months. My husband didn't work and I was working full time. I was the one who had to do all the nighttime stuff because my husband said he could never settle my son after he'd fed him so I always had to do some part of it and ended up doing all of it. I have MS, experience excruciating pain 24/7 and am also a terrible insomniac and have never had more than 3hrs sleep per day/night in over 30yrs. How many times did I call work to say I'd had a bad night? Twice. Did I call it 'sick'? No - I either made up my hours or took it as holiday. Why do people today feel that they should have a day off work just because they've not slept well? That's a bad as saying they want a day off sick because they've got a hangover. Hangovers are self- inflicted ..... so are babies! In either case you should 'expect' what's coming and plan accordingly!!

Just because you have super powers, there's no need to assume that others do too. Have more empathy for the family. We are all made differently and sleep is a human right, essential for survival and mental wellbeing. If the guy didn't phone in sick, then by working more he will make himself sicker and be unable to care for the child. Child Safeguarding, driver road safety and self preservation are more important than that. I like the integrity of the person for being 100% truthful to his employer. Its hard to find people like that. Also, he may be able to trade in some sickness days for paternal leave instead, if his employer would be happy with that. Nice honest guy who cares for his child and health.

So if someone has a condition that causes chronic fatigue, is that considered an excuse too?

I am retired ( thanks Covid) at 57

The last company I worked for were very good about a bad nights sleep, in that if you emailed at stupid o clock and said I will be in an hour late and will make it up, nobody minded.

Equally, once or twice I emailed in the middle of the night and said that if I came into work I would be taking money under false pretences and I would like to book a days holidays, depending on the mood the boss was in, you would either lose your days AL, half a day, or he would totally ignore it.

MakeMathsFun & WhipperSnapperSteve

MMF.... everyone knows that babies (in general) aren't great sleepers during their first few months and most people seem to find ways to cope with it, so I can't see why this guy hasn't had a conversation with his manager to see whether there's a way the employer might be able to help out for the first month or so, maybe he could arrange to start work a couple of hours later for a while to give him a chance to get a bit more sleep or book a few mornings off as holiday.

MMF & WSS... Oh if only I did have super powers - the things I could do! But no, I'm just a normal mum although I do have a number of health issues. The insomnia has a nasty habit of also exacerbating my chronic fatigue and both are significant symptoms of MS, so to answer Steve's question of whether chronic fatigue is an excuse, I would most definitely say no, it's not an excuse when attributable to another diagnosed condition, as in my case, MS. There's a massive difference between being tired and suffering with diagnosed chronic fatigue.

Nobody can dispute the fact that if you'd be a danger on the road (for any reason) then you shouldn't be driving to work. Catch a bus or take the day off but don't call in sick as you're taking the piss out of those with chronic illnesses who do make it in to work. Ask for a day's leave, ask to come in a few hours late and make up the time or be honest to your boss and let them decide what to call it. As to those on here who advocate life's for living and bugger work - good luck with that one.

All the Judgy McJudgersons on here trying to put do each other with their lack of sleep and what they still achieve is actually laughable. Fact you aren’t living this mans life and can’t possibly know how he’s feeling, whatever happened to #bekind hey.

@WhipperSnapperSteve

So if someone has a condition that causes chronic fatigue, is that considered an excuse too?

Yes. ME is a recognised disease that affects millions of people with chronic fatigue. Just because a disability is not seen, does not mean it is not there.

@Scottsy100

All the Judgy McJudgersons on here trying to put do each other with their lack of sleep and what they still achieve is actually laughable. Fact you aren’t living this mans life and can’t possibly know how he’s feeling, whatever happened to #bekind hey.

Well said. Kindness.

Nice honest guy who cares for his child and health.

But not about the organisation who pay his wages it seems

Nobody’s saying he has to keep working - but he should NOT be using sick leave!
Talk to manager and work out a flexible schedule etc. But swanning off and expecting colleagues to take up the slack is appalling. If he’s having such issues then nee work arrangements should be formalised and team work rearranged to cover.
Not just dumped on other people and pretending that this is normal