SAHM - does that mean I have to do pretty much everything?

[squishmittens]

I am a SAHM - we have a 4 year old in reception and a 2 year old at home full time. DH works from home full time. His regular chores are:

Putting out the wheelie bins (not taking the rubbish from inside bin to outside, just putting the wheelie bins on the curb once a week).

Walking and feeding the dog twice a day (he likes this - I'm basically not allowed to walk the dog as this is his time for fresh air).

Mowing the lawn

Any adhoc diy job/repair as absolutely necessary (e.g. fixing broken oven, washing machine, so stuff we can't live without - maintenance work that can wait is never done).

Puts one child to bed (we each take one child and swap each night)

He very occasionally loads/unloads the dishwasher and hoovers the lounge - maybe once or twice a month.

I do literally every other home and child related activity. I'm fed up of all of it. I think my DH should do more, he obviously doesn't and now I feel like a maid. I'm thinking of going back to work and paying for nursery/cleaner/after school clubs etc. otherwise I feel like I'm going to lose it. AIBU?

@AlexaShutUp

I have a friend who works in a massively high-pressured finance role and finds it much, much easier than being at home with a demanding small child.

I think we must all have very different experiences of parenting, because my mind honestly boggles when I read stuff like this. I have done jobs that are immensely demanding (both intellectually and emotionally) and jobs that are pretty easy. I found looking after my small dd easier and more enjoyable than any of them. I do totally accept and respect the fact that some people find it really hard to look after small children, but I won't pretend to understand it.

I totally appreciate that it is extremely challenging to care for children with some SEN or disabilities. Likewise to care for twins or triplets etc. I can imagine that must be quite difficult. Personally, though, I struggle to understand what is so challenging about single birth NT children. I guess it depends on the temperament and personality of the child, as well as the temperament and personality of the parent, as well as the parent's particular skill set and the nature of any work that they have done previously, how they feel about working to someone else's agenda vs having their own autonomy, the extent to which they like to do things on their own vs being part of a team etc. There are so many variables.

I'm absolutely not knocking those who find parenting a struggle, nor am I wishing to minimise the challenges that they face. It's just really interesting to me how two people can experience similar situations in such different ways.

Well, you’ve just listed the challenges of being at the beck and call of a very small human all day long, with no (or very little) adult company to break it up.

I don’t believe for one second you found every single minute of parenting an absolute joy. It isn’t. It’s often great and it’s lovely to be with them - but lets not pretend the day to day drudgery of snack-wipe-Mr Tumble is particularly fulfilling. If you thought that, you wouldn’t be so sneery about SAHP.

I suppose it depends on how taxing hubby's job is.

Yes. IMO a SAHP should do the bulk of daily household jobs simply because they have more time to do so. A FT working parent is typically unable to do household chores for at least 38 hours a week as they're at work... realistically a lot of housework (if not all) could be done in this time which means when family are all together and the working parent is home the time spent is quality fun time, instead of endless chores. I think that's kind of the deal when one person is funding the entire family. Of course, I do think the working parent should still help with childcare when they're home and do some smaller jobs like decorating - sounds like your DH does just that so it's a good balance.

If you are home all day and don't work I'd expect you to do most of it. But he should help out when he can obviously.

Hi yes it was expected here. To be fair mine at school. Hard with younger kids. He did bins and outside stuff. Stay home is awful thankless (having done it)

I don’t believe for one second you found every single minute of parenting an absolute joy. It isn’t. It’s often great and it’s lovely to be with them - but lets not pretend the day to day drudgery of snack-wipe-Mr Tumble is particularly fulfilling. If you thought that, you wouldn’t be so sneery about SAHP.

Believe what you like, I can only speak for my own experience. I found looking after small dc to be very easy and enjoyable, but I do accept that it would get tedious if you did that all the time - I guess that is one of the reasons why I went back to work.

For me, I think it was the lack of any external expectations or accountability that made it so easy for me to look after my dd. So much of my professional life has been spent juggling the competing demands of my managers, my teams and my clients, it was very refreshing to suit myself and deal only with the demands of a small child. I was free to do things exactly as I wanted to, when I wanted to, without bothering about anyone else's schedule or demands, and I really enjoyed this. (Probably should have been self employed...)

If people are saying that being a SAHP is harder than work because they find it boring or unfulfilling, I can understand that because that was my mother's experience. I thought that they meant the actual work itself was more challenging, which I always found difficult to understand. I guess it depends on your definition of difficult.

FWIW, I am not sneering at SAHPs at all. I think it's a very valid choice if it works for you and your family. I don't understand though why some parents SAH when they find it so unenjoyable, unless low earning potential has left them without a choice.

FWIW @Pumperthepumper, I have found the teen years very easy as well. Maybe some kids are just easier than others?

@AlexaShutUp

I don’t believe for one second you found every single minute of parenting an absolute joy. It isn’t. It’s often great and it’s lovely to be with them - but lets not pretend the day to day drudgery of snack-wipe-Mr Tumble is particularly fulfilling. If you thought that, you wouldn’t be so sneery about SAHP.

Believe what you like, I can only speak for my own experience. I found looking after small dc to be very easy and enjoyable, but I do accept that it would get tedious if you did that all the time - I guess that is one of the reasons why I went back to work.

For me, I think it was the lack of any external expectations or accountability that made it so easy for me to look after my dd. So much of my professional life has been spent juggling the competing demands of my managers, my teams and my clients, it was very refreshing to suit myself and deal only with the demands of a small child. I was free to do things exactly as I wanted to, when I wanted to, without bothering about anyone else's schedule or demands, and I really enjoyed this. (Probably should have been self employed...)

If people are saying that being a SAHP is harder than work because they find it boring or unfulfilling, I can understand that because that was my mother's experience. I thought that they meant the actual work itself was more challenging, which I always found difficult to understand. I guess it depends on your definition of difficult.

FWIW, I am not sneering at SAHPs at all. I think it's a very valid choice if it works for you and your family. I don't understand though why some parents SAH when they find it so unenjoyable, unless low earning potential has left them without a choice.

Or unless they have an unsupportive partner who doesn’t believe ‘childcare’ is a valid enough reason to not take on 100% of the housework and be grateful for it.

In my view, men who refuse to contribute to the household/childcare making a very clear statement that you are beneath them. That they shouldn't be expected to lower themselves to "women's work".

A partner who sits and watches tv knowing that their partner is tired having got up in the night, woken up early, been on duty with the DC all day, tidied up, cooked dinner, done bath time, done bedtime etc, etc is telling you that they just don't care that much in my view.

Or unless they have an unsupportive partner who doesn’t believe ‘childcare’ is a valid enough reason to not take on 100% of the housework and be grateful for it.

Well, personally I think that's a negotiation for each couple. As I've said above, my view is that the default position is for couples to share responsibility for everything, so any variation on that needs to be mutually agreed between them.

Of course, there are some tossers who would expect their wives to take on the majority of childcare and housework even if their partner was working as well, but I wouldn't choose to marry and have children with that type.

@AlexaShutUp

Or unless they have an unsupportive partner who doesn’t believe ‘childcare’ is a valid enough reason to not take on 100% of the housework and be grateful for it.

Well, personally I think that's a negotiation for each couple. As I've said above, my view is that the default position is for couples to share responsibility for everything, so any variation on that needs to be mutually agreed between them.

Of course, there are some tossers who would expect their wives to take on the majority of childcare and housework even if their partner was working as well, but I wouldn't choose to marry and have children with that type.

But you also wouldn’t support a partner who ‘chose’ to be a SAMP without taking the lion’s share of the grunt work too.

But you also wouldn’t support a partner who ‘chose’ to be a SAMP without taking the lion’s share of the grunt work too.

No, because I wouldn't personally see that as a fair division of labour, based on my experience and my family circumstances.

I have no issue with other people deciding that such an arrangement is fair for their families, based on their circumstances, their kids, their jobs etc. I am merely saying that it needs to be by mutual agreement. I don't think someone can just unilaterally choose to SAH and define the job description as they wish, any more than I think someone can just unilaterally decide to focus on their career while their partner is responsible for all of the housework as well as the kids.

I think the starting position is that both partners are equally responsible for everything. If they decide between them that one person should take on more responsibility in one area while the other takes on more responsibility in another, that's totally valid and may make a lot of sense, but there is nevertheless a need for them to reach an agreement on how that labour should be divided between them. It is between the couple, and the split that is acceptable to one family might not work for another.

@AlexaShutUp

But you also wouldn’t support a partner who ‘chose’ to be a SAMP without taking the lion’s share of the grunt work too.

No, because I wouldn't personally see that as a fair division of labour, based on my experience and my family circumstances.

I have no issue with other people deciding that such an arrangement is fair for their families, based on their circumstances, their kids, their jobs etc. I am merely saying that it needs to be by mutual agreement. I don't think someone can just unilaterally choose to SAH and define the job description as they wish, any more than I think someone can just unilaterally decide to focus on their career while their partner is responsible for all of the housework as well as the kids.

I think the starting position is that both partners are equally responsible for everything. If they decide between them that one person should take on more responsibility in one area while the other takes on more responsibility in another, that's totally valid and may make a lot of sense, but there is nevertheless a need for them to reach an agreement on how that labour should be divided between them. It is between the couple, and the split that is acceptable to one family might not work for another.

I don't think someone can just unilaterally choose to SAH and define the job description as they wish, any more than I think someone can just unilaterally decide to focus on their career while their partner is responsible for all of the housework as well as the kids.

Except the definition of SAMP is ‘childcare’. That’s where the money is saved. It’s always so interesting to me that people don’t see childcare as valid, until they’re paying someone else for it.

Except the definition of SAMP is ‘childcare’.

I guess that this is where we differ. I don't think there is any official definition of a SAHP - what the role does and doesn't entail is a matter for discussion and mutual agreement between the couple.

You seem to be saying that, if my DH had just decided that he was going to be a SAHP when dd was younger, and that he alone was going to define what that role should involve, then I should not have had any say in that decision? That, even if that didn't look like a fair division of labour to me, I should have just sucked it up and accepted the roles assigned to me?

Sorry, but that is not how our relationship works.

@Sunshinegirl82

In my view, men who refuse to contribute to the household/childcare making a very clear statement that you are beneath them. That they shouldn't be expected to lower themselves to "women's work".

A partner who sits and watches tv knowing that their partner is tired having got up in the night, woken up early, been on duty with the DC all day, tidied up, cooked dinner, done bath time, done bedtime etc, etc is telling you that they just don't care that much in my view.

I could not agree more with this.

Unfortunately my husband is of this mindset

That’s where the money is saved.

I'm actually wondering if we're talking at crossed purposes now. If you're coming at this from the perspective of two low earners who can't actually afford for both of them to go back to work, then I get your point - one partner has to stay at home no matter what, and so it isn't quite the same negotiation.

I'm coming at this from the perspective of my own family, where being a SAHP would have always represented a financial cost rather than a saving, because we both earned more than the cost of childcare.

I do agree that the argument is a bit different when a couple genuinely has no choice, because one person is forced to SAH whether they want to or not.

I guess that this is where we differ. I don't think there is any official definition of a SAHP - what the role does and doesn't entail is a matter for discussion and mutual agreement between the couple
I agree.
DH and I have always been of the view that if one of us stayed home or substantially dropped our hours then we would do more of the day to day household and everything else would be split. For us, being at home with DC is not the same as DC being in nursery with qualified specialists who plan a full day of educational activities and are responsible for tracking DC's development against a national framework. For us, trying to argue that one of us at home is the same as childcare does a disservice to childcare workers. Because of this we don't buy the idea that the person at home does only child things and then the working person has to half the housework.

However, we both value the SAHP role even though it wasn't right for us long term and we have an equitable split of domestic duties. I'd probably think differently if our family was based on me carrying the mental load whilst he watched telly and went to the gym.

Very few people need a cleaner twice a week. It’s quite reasonable to want a cleaner twice a week, and go back to work to make this happen.

@AlexaShutUp

Except the definition of SAMP is ‘childcare’.

I guess that this is where we differ. I don't think there is any official definition of a SAHP - what the role does and doesn't entail is a matter for discussion and mutual agreement between the couple.

You seem to be saying that, if my DH had just decided that he was going to be a SAHP when dd was younger, and that he alone was going to define what that role should involve, then I should not have had any say in that decision? That, even if that didn't look like a fair division of labour to me, I should have just sucked it up and accepted the roles assigned to me?

Sorry, but that is not how our relationship works.

Well, we can’t really disagree on the definition of SAMP being ‘childcare’, because it is. If you didn’t have children and didn’t go out to work, you wouldn’t call yourself a SAHP.

I’m saying it’s interesting to me that you don’t see one parent doing the childcare as a ‘fair division of labour’ when actually, if you’d outsourced that full-time childcare, you probably wouldn’t then expect your childminder to do housework on top of that.

I do think that once you’ve got a school age child you should be doing the vast majority of housework. I have similar ages and my non working day with just the 2 year old is a breeze really. I’m sure week after week there is an element of it being tedious but there is no reason with those ages you can’t be keeping on top of things. Now that doesn’t mean your husband can’t do some stuff of a weekend or look after the children bit I’d see a sahp’s job as including housework unless lots of pre-schoolers etc.

Except the definition of SAMP is ‘childcare’

If my DH is with the children he is parenting not doing childcare. Childcare is looking after other people’s. Professional childcare is very different from just being a parent.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Except the definition of SAMP is ‘childcare’

If my DH is with the children he is parenting not doing childcare. Childcare is looking after other people’s. Professional childcare is very different from just being a parent.

What’s the difference?

You’re about to get a hard time on here if you think ‘going out to work’ means you’re not a parent for those hours.

Well, we can’t really disagree on the definition of SAMP being ‘childcare’, because it is. If you didn’t have children and didn’t go out to work, you wouldn’t call yourself a SAHP.

We absolutely can and do disagree on what the SAHP role entails. Although you might like to, you don't get to have the definitive say on this. For you, it entails childcare. For me, it entails childcare and domestic duties. Essentially, what was modelled for me by my own SAH mum. There is no legal definition. There are other SAHPs on this thread who interpret the role differently.

I’m saying it’s interesting to me that you don’t see one parent doing the childcare as a ‘fair division of labour’ when actually, if you’d outsourced that full-time childcare, you probably wouldn’t then expect your childminder to do housework on top of that.

No, we didn't expect our nanny to do housework on top of the childcare, although she quite often took it upon herself to put the odd wash on, fold up laundry, tidy up etc. However, having a nanny for a few hours a day while we shared the rest of the childcare between us was considerably cheaper than having a SAHP would have been, so obviously expectations would have been different.

Also, looking after your own children at home is very different from looking after other people's children in a professional capacity. Having nannied for a couple of summers when I was a student, I think it's infinitely easier looking after your own children, or at least, it was for me.

Incidentally @Pumperthepumper, you haven't really answered the question as to whether I should have just sucked it up if my DH had unilaterally decided to be SAHP when dd was younger, with responsibility for childcare only, even if I didn't think that was fair. What if we had both decided that we wanted that role?

I honestly can't see how this can be anything other than a negotiation, an arrangement that is mutually agreed between both partners. And if they can't agree between them on what the SAHP role should involve, then the only fair option is that they should both share everything between them.

@AlexaShutUp

Well, we can’t really disagree on the definition of SAMP being ‘childcare’, because it is. If you didn’t have children and didn’t go out to work, you wouldn’t call yourself a SAHP.

We absolutely can and do disagree on what the SAHP role entails. Although you might like to, you don't get to have the definitive say on this. For you, it entails childcare. For me, it entails childcare and domestic duties. Essentially, what was modelled for me by my own SAH mum. There is no legal definition. There are other SAHPs on this thread who interpret the role differently.

I’m saying it’s interesting to me that you don’t see one parent doing the childcare as a ‘fair division of labour’ when actually, if you’d outsourced that full-time childcare, you probably wouldn’t then expect your childminder to do housework on top of that.

No, we didn't expect our nanny to do housework on top of the childcare, although she quite often took it upon herself to put the odd wash on, fold up laundry, tidy up etc. However, having a nanny for a few hours a day while we shared the rest of the childcare between us was considerably cheaper than having a SAHP would have been, so obviously expectations would have been different.

Also, looking after your own children at home is very different from looking after other people's children in a professional capacity. Having nannied for a couple of summers when I was a student, I think it's infinitely easier looking after your own children, or at least, it was for me.

You had a nanny, on top of split shifts, on top of exactly shared chores, with one child?