Report that says Institutional Racism doesn't exist and more ...

[Dustyboots]

Is no one else angry about this?

I can't find any other threads about it.

What is going on?

And the bit that says the “slave period”, was not just about “profit and suffering” and argues that the era was also about how “culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain”.

Are people unaware of this? Or do we just no longer care ...

@Blackberrycream. I don’t think you are alone there

@Flaxmeadow

On another tack. I found it interesting that the commission panel were largley from London, or some from Birmingham. Not sure why. I'd have liked to have seen more of the north represented. Especially as most ethnic minorities in the UK live outside London

You sure about that?

Also one of the things I noticed when last teaching was that very intelligent, focused black boys were seen as ‘autistic’ when they neither had statements or assessments to back that up or indicated to me any concerns. They were very conscientious, talented at maths and working well but the work actually wasn’t that hard and as they zoomed through it they were just told to carry on the next page in the book. I talk to the parents and I know that they are given work at home and often extra tutoring so they are just disciplined for work. They stand out in those low achieving state schools but put them in a private school and they were be in sync with the rest of the class.

They would be, sorry

@Smurfsarethefuture
Parents are often really committed as they are aware of obstacles but the tutoring is often low quality and rote based. The odds are stacked. I worked with children who got into top state and private . With the right expectations and teaching, the baseline is set on a more equal level and children can show their ability.

It is wrong as it sets an expectation that less is expected. If less is expected, less is achieved.

@Blackberrycream. Absolutely. And then those children are competing in national exams that are standard.

I’m glad this topic has made its way to Aibu. This report is truly horrifying. It shows our government are beginning to act much like an authoritarian regime (two in particular spring to mind). If we say something doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist and we don’t have to deal with it. It puts the onus straight back onto the individual.

This report is truly horrifying. It shows our government are beginning to act much like an authoritarian regime

Yes it's so obviously just like Hitler declaring himself further & chancellor, accompanied by torchlight parades through the streets of Berlin by the SS

@Flaxmeadow

A lot of people had no idea modern Brits were paying off money the British Treasury gave to people made rich through human suffering. The government pledged, in 1833, £20 million in order to reimburse the owners of slaves when slavery was abolished in Britain, and it took the British taxpayer 182 years to pay off (Brice, 2018).

So, the past is still very much present in all is heinous forms.

That's one perspective. Another might be that the Govt at the time, who remember desperately wanted to end slavery in the BWI and as quickly as possible, had no othe choice but to compensate slave owners if they wanted to end slavery

The fight to end slavery had been a popular cause for at least 50 years by then but hampered by legal issues. If the only way to end it was by paying off the slave owners then, as they saw it at the time, so be it. Otherwise the issue could have dragged on even longer

I always wish that people would try and think of a modern comparison to these kinds of things, to get a sense of why they might have happened.

What if the government today, for example, wanted to private ownership of something like oil, or another resource. Or commercial fishing licences. Or patents on biologically modified organisms, whatever.

There are companies who have been operating entirely legally, have invested in these things, they involve a significant assets.

There would absolutely be some kind of transition that would have to happen, where the government bought back the licences or the rights, or companies were given so much time to get out of certain activities, and so on. In fact the faster and more completely you'd want it to happen, the more a straightforward exchange of money would be likely.

It's really distasteful because it seems like money for people, but taking that kind of valuation altogether out of the economy was the whole point of the exercise.

Agree, some black children are outperforming from the statistics.

However, we need to look a little closer at the numbers. Rates for fixed-term exclusions - disciplinary measures that may last a day or several weeks - were around three times higher for black pupils according to 2017-18 (Richardson, 2020).

The House of Commons Library, commissioned by Liberal Democrat education spokes person Layla Moran, revealed that black pupils in some areas of England were more than three times more likely to be excluded from school than their peers in 2017-18 (Gibbons, 2020).

So, if we know that a large number of students from Black backgrounds are being excluded at a higher rate, the numbers then become highly subjective. If the 'number of black children are outperforming' their peers, what are the numbers vs the number of children excluded?

Makes you think.

So I agree, these are different things. And probably no one report can capture everything. What this report suggests is that educational attainment disparities don't seem to be about race so much as class, and that's very useful information. And apparently the disparities in the workplace for younger people also don't seem to be around race at the population level, which is also useful to know.

It could also be that there is a disparity in terms of exclusions that is based on race, those aren't totally incompatible possibilities, though they might warrant a little more digging because generally kids that are in trouble a lot or out of school a lot aren't going to do all that well.

As it happens, Tom Chivers did an interesting analysis of the exclusion data, and it largely paints a similar picture to the other report - black African students are less likely than average to be excluded, (along with some other sub-groups) while black Caribbean students, and Travellers, among others, are more likely to be excluded. That might be racism, but it doesn't seem like it's anti-black racism particularly.

The thing is, these are areas where many activists have been pointing to race as the relevant factor in terms of disparities and problems. But the reality seems a lot more complicated than just saying "black students are disadvantaged at school so we need to do something about that."

I find myself wondering who it is that really benefits from maintaining that kind of statement and is so threatened by more complex data. And I can't help but think, like any old school leftist, that it is elements who are happy to spend some money on anti-racist initiatives but really don't want to challenge class structure or see solidarity among the working classes.

The bit I don't understand

And I'm white middle class English

Is when people say. Stuff like (and has been on this thread by some posters)

I'm sick of white people being vilified
I'm white and this is historical it's nothing to do with me we need to move on
I'm white and I've had enough of white people being blamed for everything

No one is blaming individual random white people in society for anything. So why is there so often this reaction? I'm genuinely interested as I genuinely don't understand.

It's the same with women's rights with individual men taking it personally.

Does anyone know what the thinking is? Because I'm white and I don't feel got at when racism is discussed and I don't know why I would

If black people tell me that they experience racism then I believe them.

When I say I've experienced sexism a lot of people don't believe me. Start saying well maybe it was actually this or that other reason.

So that is how I approach this topic.

Does anyone know what the thinking is? Because I'm white and I don't feel got at when racism is discussed and I don't know why I would

Maybe you would feel got at if you happened to be racist @NiceGerbil? I tend to assume that the people who get really defensive about this kind of thing are the ones who have something to be defensive about.

I think we all have a shared responsibility for racism. Most white people will have benefited from white privilege, even if they don't recognise it, and all of us are probably guilty of some unconscious bias. However, those of us who try to be anti-racist tend not to be defensive about it but rather eager to learn and reflect. Others seem desperate to deny that racism is an issue. You've got to wonder about their motives.

I'm not sure it's as cut and dried as that.

And I'm not saying it's the same experience at all, but the arguments and the defensiveness are v similar to when misogyny is discussed.

A really eye opening thing for me is that posters who get really fucked off when men say ' you can't say that as a class men do xyz because I'm not like that and not all men are and it's not fair' will do that exact thing when the topic is racism.

I think for a lot of people maybe they just don't want to think about it? They'd rather not hear about it .

(This report delivers just that).

Why do people who aren't the thing think they know better than the thing who live the thing?

[quote Blackberrycream]@Kamr123
You’re right about the education statistics. As a mother of black boys and an ex teacher it’s a mess. I remember looking at a well known assessment system ( GL) giving me statistics on my class. It was adjusted for expected achievement based on ethnicity. Nobody even seemed to notice and I’m losing energy to be honest. I’m just trying to get my children through it.
@Flaxmeadow I have felt disenfranchised at times but I think it’s not the right way forward for people who have similar issues in some ways to be turning on each other .[/quote]
Unfortunately, education is a system to keep a particular demographic of children (be it black and/ or poor) in an oppressive, albeit, state or instability and suppression.

In report on implicit bias it examined test scores it was found that when students indicated their race their grades were significantly lower, than if they did not disclose it, a ‘Stereotype Threat’ and a ‘social-psychological predicament’. Exactly what was found in the facade with GCSE allocated grades this past year, where they used the school's past results, and the area in which the student lived.

NASUWT found that 62% of teachers did not believe that schools treated BAME (I personally despise this acronym) pupils fairly, and having a prevalence of white Headteachers can have a far reaching effect, with research finding that non-ethnic minority teachers have low expectations of black students (Gershenson, et al., 2016).

It has also been found that Black students are subjected to the most intense forms of social control (like exclusion) and share many of the same characteristics with those who are most likely to be accused and convicted of crime: they tend to be poor, male, and members of a racial or ethnic minority.

This can be reflected in The Lammy Review (2017) which found a link between ethnic group and receiving custodial sentences with 81% higher for Black (p.33). This does not escape children of colour as nearly half of all children in custody (48%) are from a black, Asian or minority ethnic background (Youth Justice Board, 2018).

It ties together to form a set of parameters that keep them subjugated, from school through to adulthood - or the intention to.

I think for a lot of people maybe they just don't want to think about it? They'd rather not hear about it

Yes, I think that's true, but I think that's because it can be really uncomfortable to consider whether you are part of the problem, and whether there is anything that you need to do differently to help tackle the injustices faced by others. In a racist, misogynistic society, most of us will have absorbed some racist, misogynistic stereotypes, views or biases of some sort. It takes courage to reflect on these issues really honestly and with an open mind, and it's easier for some people to block it out so that they don't have to confront those difficult thoughts.

Personally, I don't actually think it's surprising that people absorb certain negative stereotypes or unconscious biases, because we are surrounded by them all the time. I also don't believe that those things alone make us racist or misogynist, because we can choose to recognise them for what they are and try to correct them. However, a reluctance to examine and confront those stereotypes and biases begins to tip us over the line.

Most people want to believe that they are decent people, so they would rather not look into the darker corners of their soul. It's easier to dismiss the problem so that they don't have to think about it. If racism or misogyny doesn't exist - or if it is confined to a very small bunch of evil people who are out there and not anything to do with me - then I cannot possibly be part of the problem and I don't need to change my own behaviour in any way in order to be part of the solution.

@SmokedDuck

Agree, some black children are outperforming from the statistics.

However, we need to look a little closer at the numbers. Rates for fixed-term exclusions - disciplinary measures that may last a day or several weeks - were around three times higher for black pupils according to 2017-18 (Richardson, 2020).

The House of Commons Library, commissioned by Liberal Democrat education spokes person Layla Moran, revealed that black pupils in some areas of England were more than three times more likely to be excluded from school than their peers in 2017-18 (Gibbons, 2020).

So, if we know that a large number of students from Black backgrounds are being excluded at a higher rate, the numbers then become highly subjective. If the 'number of black children are outperforming' their peers, what are the numbers vs the number of children excluded?

Makes you think.

So I agree, these are different things. And probably no one report can capture everything. What this report suggests is that educational attainment disparities don't seem to be about race so much as class, and that's very useful information. And apparently the disparities in the workplace for younger people also don't seem to be around race at the population level, which is also useful to know.

It could also be that there is a disparity in terms of exclusions that is based on race, those aren't totally incompatible possibilities, though they might warrant a little more digging because generally kids that are in trouble a lot or out of school a lot aren't going to do all that well.

As it happens, Tom Chivers did an interesting analysis of the exclusion data, and it largely paints a similar picture to the other report - black African students are less likely than average to be excluded, (along with some other sub-groups) while black Caribbean students, and Travellers, among others, are more likely to be excluded. That might be racism, but it doesn't seem like it's anti-black racism particularly.

The thing is, these are areas where many activists have been pointing to race as the relevant factor in terms of disparities and problems. But the reality seems a lot more complicated than just saying "black students are disadvantaged at school so we need to do something about that."

I find myself wondering who it is that really benefits from maintaining that kind of statement and is so threatened by more complex data. And I can't help but think, like any old school leftist, that it is elements who are happy to spend some money on anti-racist initiatives but really don't want to challenge class structure or see solidarity among the working classes.

A well balanced outlook, and I agree about the complexity of the task at hand, and it can, quite possibly, harken back to immigration for Caribbean children.

Focusing on the immigration following world war II, between 1945 and 1971, saw half a million people from the West Indies recruited by the British state to cull labour shortfalls in an economic up rise. The 1971 Immigration Act gave Commonwealth citizens, already living in the UK indefinite leave to remain. Thus, British-born children from West Indian immigrants were the first, to enter the education system.

Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Black children, particularly Caribbean boys, were labelled as ‘educationally subnormal’ (ESN), unable to contend with the English language with the state racialising immigration by constructing it as a ‘black problem’ .

It can be applied here, in both its historical and contemporary context, with consistently high rates of exclusions for Black Caribbean students, since the now abolished Inner London Education Authority (ILEA) started data collection of both sexes I might add.

I suspect that is what the return to 'race' is about and why it dominates the conversation, especially within education. It's as if that still hasn't been addressed and is still outstanding for review.

What it boils down to it that though we have a class issue (that I will not deny ) the intersectionality of race and socioeconomic status and let's not forget SEN and gender, all become embroiled in the same net. This is where the complexity lies: a cross-section of group of students can cross several boundaries, all vying for a place of prominence to be addressed.

Nevertheless, looking back the original post institutional racism exists, just because it may not be 'as bad' as a years ago, does not mean it is still not prevalent. Denying it's existence allows those that perpetuate it, to continue, without recourse.

@AlexaShutUp

I think for a lot of people maybe they just don't want to think about it? They'd rather not hear about it

Yes, I think that's true, but I think that's because it can be really uncomfortable to consider whether you are part of the problem, and whether there is anything that you need to do differently to help tackle the injustices faced by others. In a racist, misogynistic society, most of us will have absorbed some racist, misogynistic stereotypes, views or biases of some sort. It takes courage to reflect on these issues really honestly and with an open mind, and it's easier for some people to block it out so that they don't have to confront those difficult thoughts.

Personally, I don't actually think it's surprising that people absorb certain negative stereotypes or unconscious biases, because we are surrounded by them all the time. I also don't believe that those things alone make us racist or misogynist, because we can choose to recognise them for what they are and try to correct them. However, a reluctance to examine and confront those stereotypes and biases begins to tip us over the line.

Most people want to believe that they are decent people, so they would rather not look into the darker corners of their soul. It's easier to dismiss the problem so that they don't have to think about it. If racism or misogyny doesn't exist - or if it is confined to a very small bunch of evil people who are out there and not anything to do with me - then I cannot possibly be part of the problem and I don't need to change my own behaviour in any way in order to be part of the solution.

This was well thought out and presented in a way that I can relate to on many levels.

This makes an interesting read. The bit about why the government may have wanted to release a controversial report.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56578839

@SmokedDuck Your last post, which I agree with, reminded me of this and I hope it's relevant.

Africans tend to do better than their British counterparts. By Africans, I mean those raised in Africa but live here or those whose parents were raised there and still maintain that African outlook compared to British descendants of Africans and/or those raised here. In the US, this is also the case.

It could be because most African families don't have the "victim talk" - the opposite is the case. They generally tend to succeed more in the west in whatever field of study or employment they're in than other Black people.

It could also be because a lot of Africans who migrate to study or work are from MC backgrounds but as class translates differently across cultures, they're seen as or they become (not sure which it is) WC here and are lumped in with the WC black British. A few of these MC Africans maintain their MC-ness here and some of them even move up the ladder.

Still, you can often tell the difference in outlook, mindset and general outcome where race isn't typically seen as a barrier or a personal identity.

To digress a bit...

Because their lived experiences are different, you'll find many Africans who don't relate to the lived experience of the Black British or the WC black British mainly due to race not being a factor during their formative years. Then you'll find many Black British who also can't relate to not having 'race' as an issue.

The problem is one group of black people (Black British) tends to vilify the other group who don't seem to get it from their point of view. On one hand, they say the words "black people aren't a monolith" almost in a sneery way while criticizing those who speak/think/see differently to them as not the right type of black people. On the other hand, the same people say those words in a completely different way when accusing white people of something or trying to say those other black people don't speak for them.

Someone like Kemi Badenoch has been called all sorts of names on BMN, a place where most dissenting black voices have either left or rarely post due to the typical insular culture and cliques you'll find in these spaces, with opinions stated on behalf of everyone.

Eg: Some have posted about their lived experience as Africans for whom 'race' is only about the 4th or so part of who they are.

Then on the same board, some have declared they've never seen anyone to whom 'race' isn't Number 1 and it can never be separated from being a woman (or anything else I suppose) as a black person, EVER!!!!!!!

The problem is one group is stating their lived experience, another group is using their lived experience to make declarations and insinuations of speaking for the whole black community.

The point here is that the same thing happens all the time (including in this report) where one group's issues or success is used as a blanket judgement for all the groups within the group. I agree it's necessary to break things down and look into different root causes. So while this is a race issue, it's also a class, economic and cultural issue. It's unhelpful to pick one or the other.

What is taught in history is an interesting point, given history is now taught in a chronological as manner there is a focus on continuity and context. Given the time allocated to history and the sheer volume it is impossible to cover everything so of course choices are made - the approach is a dash through history which is superficial at all levels whether it be the Romans, Tudors or Empire. Certainly it isn't until GCSE that deeper analysis takes hold. We are in the U.K. and of course there will be greater emphasis upon U.K. history.

@Nightbear

Funny how the ‘best person for the job’ = white and male isn’t it?

The UK is nearly 90% white and 50% male. So shockingly yes, you would expect to see lots of white males in well paid jobs.

Sure you’ll point to board level under-representation - so average age of a UK board director is 59, average % of non-white board directors 7%.

Not coincidentally, the average number of non-white university graduates in the 1970s was... 7%.

It’s not gaslighting or racism to analyse the situation rationally. Changes take time as the report points out, and as I see in my school, every racial group outperforms white children other than students from Caribbean background. In my direct experience this is more to do with some of the most consistently horrendous and saddening home lives I’ve ever see in all my years as a teacher, rather than any notion of racism.

The issue is with the report, it’s detractors are really struggling to pin down inaccuracies or make solid counterarguments other than #gaslighting.

The issue is, and this is very important in moving ahead, it’s not ‘poor black working class boys’ - it’s a very specific group of ‘poor working class boys’ that are struggling - African working class boys have wildly better outcomes to Caribbean working class boys, and as an admittedly generalised observation, a completely different work ethic in my A-level classroom.

We can continue to stick our heads in the sand, apportion the failings of Caribbean boys to racism, and carry on letting these boys down, or we can actually try to address what the issue is. This is where this report is at its most useful.

Side point - if girls in school were performing poorly (they are not, and by a significant margin) the headlines would be apoplectic with claims of misogyny, how hypocritical are we as a society that when boys are so far behind girls, no one seems to care?