Report that says Institutional Racism doesn't exist and more ...

[Dustyboots]

Is no one else angry about this?

I can't find any other threads about it.

What is going on?

And the bit that says the “slave period”, was not just about “profit and suffering” and argues that the era was also about how “culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain”.

Are people unaware of this? Or do we just no longer care ...

Well said in all your posts @LaLaLanded

Thank you OP I was hoping there would be discussion about this. I watched and read the news reports on this but wanted to see some in depth discussion.

The major failure of this report is that it fails to properly acknowledge and hold up racism as an issue.

I wish it had done so and then said “and let’s look at all these intersecting issues as well”

It is great that class and poverty are back on the table.

But it shouldn’t be at the expense of race.

It is not either/or.

PR secrets

“ white working class men have the luxury of being shit at school but get the opportunity to make up for it later in life.....As a black working class woman I had to be perfect in school and afterwards to get to where I am now.....”

Yes. This nails it.

And surely to goodness there is something in that statement that rings true for all women reading this, regardless of their colour??

I am really finding the back and forth discussion on pages 11 and 12 between Nicegerbil and SmokedDuck interesting.

SmokedDuck , on the very specific issue of single parent households, you said:
”As for why some communities have more of those households, I am not sure anyone really knows”

Really??

My (white) grandmother who grew up in poverty stricken north east in the early part of 1900s used to say “when money’s out, love’s out”.

And surely it is obvious that “love’s out” (I.e. the ability to get together and stick together with someone) is even more difficult if you are ALSO struggling with a difficult life due to racism?

As another poster said earlier, it’s just one more layer of the onion.

Yes ethnic minorities in this country are clearly at a disadvantage. Yes, there are subdivisions between different ethnic minorities. Yes, they are disproportionately dealing with poverty and issues such as higher proportion of single parent families.... but why?? It all comes back to racism.

You simply cannot undo centuries of societal/structural disadvantage with a couple of decades of proformas and policies, then claim our institutions are no longer racist, so whatever disadvantage is left now must be your problem.

I think it's saying that poverty, and social deprivation is more of a factor

The past is done. Nothing anyone can do about what’s happened. We can now only control the here and now, learn from the past and apply those learnings to the future. How many times can people apologise for a past that belongs to people long gone. The U.K. is so different now and bears no resemblance to how it used to be. I’m sick of being held accountable for the actions of past generations just because I’m white.

How many times can people apologise for a past that belongs to people long gone

I don't know, maybe once? The UK has never apologised for its empire, indeed it's still celebrated.

Of course there are things you can do to try to address the past and there are lots of interesting examples, eg universities founded on slavery profits offering bursaries to Caribbean students, museums returning looted objects, taking down statues of mass murderers. It doesn't erase what happened but at least it shows an awareness that it was wrong.

I think racism ('other'ness) is in our DNA, so of course it exists in every culture. Not necessarily in every person and society should try to stamp it out, but saying it's institutional as such, is incorrect. There will always be individuals in institutions who behave in a racist way, so they need to be taken out of those institutions. We need to educate people more. It is not race that disadvantages people but poverty. White working class boys are bottom of the pile along with black boys. We need to sort out poverty and ignorance.

I believe there was a thread on the Black Mumsnetters Forum here?

The more I read of reactions to the report the more I'm certain that it's effectively a Racist's Charter insofar as it is designed to be will be tabled in any discussion on race, "look what eminent minorities said, there is no racism, white people can relax, all is right with the world."

It will be used as a "Gotcha!" to derail any discussions around racial issues pertaining to the UK.

notanothersaveusername

“I think it's saying that poverty, and social deprivation is more of a factor“

Yes, I think that is what it is saying too. But why isn’t it making more of a point that this is in addition to racism?

and it isn’t acknowledging that one of the reasons why some ethnicities are disproportionately represented in groups of higher poverty and social deprivation is racism

@everythingthelighttouches

notanothersaveusername

“I think it's saying that poverty, and social deprivation is more of a factor“

Yes, I think that is what it is saying too. But why isn’t it making more of a point that this is in addition to racism?

It's my suspicion that the report was designed to conclude in such a way that it would centre white working class boys - enabling the government to throw money and resource in the direction of most votes.

This is what "levelling up" really means.

That might be a bit cynical but... I don't think I'm wrong.

Well there are some gems here.
Black people need to consider ‘ their attitude and culture ‘. That explains data such as the shocking medical statistics on maternity care for black women then.
Black mumsnetters giving the impression of‘ expecting everything handed to them on a plate’. Actually no. It would be really nice just not to have huge generalisations thrown around in an attempt to deny that race is a barrier ( as class and sex are).
Many families, mine included, have the very difficult conversation with their children that you will have to be better to receive the same. You will have to work harder and behave better. Is that the attitude you are referring to?
There are also difficult discussions about given names as we all know the effect of handing in a cv. with a name that might suggest a black background.
Reading some of the posters on this thread, it is easy to spot racism in plain sight.

The past is done. Nothing anyone can do about what’s happened. We can now only control the here and now, learn from the past and apply those learnings to the future. How many times can people apologise for a past that belongs to people long gone. The U.K. is so different now and bears no resemblance to how it used to be. I’m sick of being held accountable for the actions of past generations just because I’m white.

The past is indeed done, and you're right that we cannot change it. However, the effects of past actions are still being felt today. While I am not personally responsible for all of the wrongs committed by past generations, I do have my own share of responsibly to deal with the effects of the past on people in the present. I can choose to deny or ignore the many ways in which I have benefited and others have been disadvantaged by what happened in the past, or I can acknowledge this and try my best to correct some of the significant injustices that still persist. It isn't really a question of how many times we should apologise for what happened in the past, but rather how committed we are now to addressing the ongoing impact of the past on people's lives in the present.

So, as a white person, I don't consider myself accountable for the actions of past generations, but I am accountable - alongside you and others - for the society in which we live now. I am ashamed of what previous generations did, but I don't feel any guilt about it because I wasn't there, and I wasn't involved. I do feel guilt at our ongoing failure to address the impact of past wrongs in the present, because we are all collectively responsible for the society that we live in. Frankly, if you choose to shrug your shoulders walk away from that responsibility, then you are not much better than the slave traders and colonisers of history.

PicsInRed
It's my suspicion that the report was designed to conclude in such a way that it would centre white working class boys - enabling the government to throw money and resource in the direction of most votes
This is what "levelling up" really means.
That might be a bit cynical but... I don't think I'm wrong.

I agree with you. I think they are looking for votes, but they certainly are not looking to fix the problems for white wirkimg class boys.

I keep thinking: this is a Tory government. They may want to talk about poverty and the struggles of white working class, but they will do absolutely nothing about it. Nothing, Nada, zip all.

The biggest example to evidence this is Free School Meals.
This was a great opportunity for the government to show they care and want to take steps to solve the problem of children living in poverty.
But what did they do? They voted against FSM.
It took a Black footballer from a working class background to campaign to get the to change thier minds.

I dont even think it changed thier minds, I think the government were ashamed. But it won't stop them from doing exactly the same in the future.

@PicsInRed

This is my concern but from a slightly different angle. I think now that class is being acknowledged initiatives to help white w/c and particularly the travelling community that were long overdue will be seen as conflicting with initiatives to help the black communities.

It will set tensions in place when they need to be removed.

I really agree with the poster who said that as a black w/c woman she had to be consistently A grade compared to a w/c an but on reflection I think there is more to this. I felt the same growing up in London because the window is narrow in qualifications and for women but she also had the addition of racist attitudes towards her. For w/ c men their employability has always been the physical strength (builders, non men, construction, etc). These jobs are viewed in a shocking way in our society - we have a history of treating these men as louts and a nuisance to our daily lives.

But there is a hidden set of skills that those men develop that gets them through their world and secures the jobs. It is a frame of mind alongside something else and within the qualification/professional trajectory the poster was aiming for, the framework is different. It’s a much more organised, transparent in ways system.

So, on balance I don’t think the posters point really reflects the full picture relating to class because outside of areas in the cities with high communities of black people there are huge hidden pockets of poverty - it just gets abstracted out as not valuing education at home, etc when w/c communities have always valued education but have also always make themselves employable in the immediate presence as the professions were not seen as attainable for them.

Still can’t get over the slavery comment. My hope is that by finally acknowledging class we clear the decks and then no one can refute the underlying racism that as people have said has never really been fully acknowledged. Then we will get to a starting point from where change can happen.

It took a Black footballer from a working class background to campaign to get the to change thier minds.

And I think w/c communities saw that very clearly. I think, particularly after lockdown/covid where the essential workers were supermarket staff, teaching assts and carers no one will tolerate the kind of public mocking of the w/c we had (under the Labour government, I might add).

@Alexa good post, agreed

I agree @RobboCop
Generally working class communities are much more integrated ( inter racial families are more common) and where resentments are felt there are often underlying issues with housing and other services. This is often dismissed as racism by people who generally aren’t struggling in the same way.
Class and race are both barriers. White, working class men are not the ones putting a cv with a non white sounding name in the rejection pile.

@RobboCop

That’s my point - it shouldn’t be either/or. But my experience in local public sector (schools) is that budgets get used in a way that suggests that one group is pitted against another for resources when often it is just bad management.

I also think that we have a very distorted landscape, educationally. Someone mentioned stats for black head teachers, etc in comparison to the percentage of the popn that is black. In South London, where the Windrush community settled we seem to have a very particular school landscape. It’s also one of those areas that gets more w/c from outside of London as it was traditionally cheaper. So, we have Dilwich College, St Dunstans and Colfes. (Private). Then a lot of single sex, good girls schools from central London right down to Croydon including some excellent Convents. Then we are still accessible to Kent and the Grammar system. So, all of these selective-to-varying degrees-schools cream off who they want and the comps were always left with a disproportionate number of needs. (The needs were there in the other schools, they are just hidden, I think).

It set in motion a disparity, alongside housing (racism towards black tenants is well known) that creates a gap and nothing ever filled that gap that has been chipped away and I think made bigger as we employed some weird kind of provincialism in some of those boroughs that widens gaps rather than closes them.

@Blackberrycream

White, working class men are not the ones putting a cv with a non white sounding name in the rejection pile.

But they are by postcode. And there is a long history of Jewish people anglicising their names, isn’t there?

But a postcode (class indicator) is changeable and not static.

There is a long tradition of Jewish people anglicising their names for exactly the same reasons. Interestingly some people get very irate when widespread anti semitism is pointed out too.

Very easy to dismiss a report when you don't agree with it, the use of anecdotal evidence goes both ways and it does depend upon people's perspective. It is a fact that working class white boys are the group that underachieve the most. It is a fact that the country has done a lot in terms of legislation, support etc to stop racism and to help those from different ethnic minorities. It is a fact that some ethnic minorities achieve higher than other.
Looking forward we need to look for even great integration, I do not believe that the majority of the population is racist but that is opinion.

Achievement at school is not translating forward though. There are a few professions where there is widespread representation but too many are still overwhelmingly from one demographic.
White working class boys are used as a convenient stick against anyone trying to discuss disparities. I doubt it stems from any genuine concern about that issue.

I find it hard to understand what the situation is when for many years now we’ve been debating all kinds of issues based on personal experience rather than broader facts.

I don’t know what the pay levels are of different ethnic groups or which groups are more socially mobile.

I also don’t know what impact immigration has or wealth and educational disparities on arrival in the U.K.

It is hard to know what is actually going on.