Report that says Institutional Racism doesn't exist and more ...

[Dustyboots]

Is no one else angry about this?

I can't find any other threads about it.

What is going on?

And the bit that says the “slave period”, was not just about “profit and suffering” and argues that the era was also about how “culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain”.

Are people unaware of this? Or do we just no longer care ...

Who are these people who are supposedly bashing poor white kids?

Provileged middle class London centric liberal progressives in the media and politics. The establishment basically

For example a Labour MP sneering at an England flag that had been put up on a working class street during a major football tournament, put up there probably partly for the benefit of children cheering on their traditional culture (sporting tournaments)

Fucking hell, we just need Kanye West turning up on the thread to tell us that slavery was a choice!

I'm often wondering these days if our governments are trolling us.

I live in a predominately white area and people are openly racist here, but will swear blind that they are not, (just bantz, mate!). OK, not institutional, but this report's just going to give those kind of people the green light to be a bigot.

Our laws now say we can't even protest against it ffs.

Privileged middle class London centric liberal progressives in the media and politics. The establishment basically

Oh and academia, Priyamvada Gopal for example

@Flaxmeadow

A lot of people had no idea modern Brits were paying off money the British Treasury gave to people made rich through human suffering. The government pledged, in 1833, £20 million in order to reimburse the owners of slaves when slavery was abolished in Britain, and it took the British taxpayer 182 years to pay off (Brice, 2018).

So, the past is still very much present in all is heinous forms.

That's one perspective. Another might be that the Govt at the time, who remember desperately wanted to end slavery in the BWI and as quickly as possible, had no othe choice but to compensate slave owners if they wanted to end slavery

The fight to end slavery had been a popular cause for at least 50 years by then but hampered by legal issues. If the only way to end it was by paying off the slave owners then, as they saw it at the time, so be it. Otherwise the issue could have dragged on even longer

So, we come back to the two points you missed.

1. the crux of the issue - does it still persist in the past or the present?

2. Do we ignore the past, and throw our hands up in gratitude that it ended early which should be deemed as a 'saving grace'? 'It could have dragged on for longer?' (That is not true, but we will not go into that here).

The point is, it has not been addressed from the perspective of the wronged - the victim - the abused.

But here we are, saying enough is enough, get over it, don't worry about your lost heritage, family linage, lost cultures... because I am feeling uncomfortable talking about it?

Flax, I honestly don't think I've ever seen a single post from you that wasn't bigoted and goady, and using some kind of weird grudge against "posh Londoners" (why you believe everyone in London is "posh", or why you believe racism is just a "posh London" problem, is beyond me) as an excuse to engage in really very nasty posts.

The amount of overt racism on Mumsnet has really soared over the past year. It's despicable.

@Blackberrycream

Great post Kamr123 The gaslighting by some is disgusting. Still some black children are outperforming white working class boys ( a group that have many difficulties of their own ) so nothing to see here...

Agree, some black children are outperforming from the statistics.

However, we need to look a little closer at the numbers. Rates for fixed-term exclusions - disciplinary measures that may last a day or several weeks - were around three times higher for black pupils according to 2017-18 (Richardson, 2020).

The House of Commons Library, commissioned by Liberal Democrat education spokes person Layla Moran, revealed that black pupils in some areas of England were more than three times more likely to be excluded from school than their peers in 2017-18 (Gibbons, 2020).

So, if we know that a large number of students from Black backgrounds are being excluded at a higher rate, the numbers then become highly subjective. If the 'number of black children are outperforming' their peers, what are the numbers vs the number of children excluded?

Makes you think.

@GeidiPrimes

Fucking hell, we just need Kanye West turning up on the thread to tell us that slavery was a choice!

I'm often wondering these days if our governments are trolling us.

I live in a predominately white area and people are openly racist here, but will swear blind that they are not, (just bantz, mate!). OK, not institutional, but this report's just going to give those kind of people the green light to be a bigot.

Our laws now say we can't even protest against it ffs.

Well said.

So, we come back to the two points you missed.

1) the crux of the issue - does it still persist in the past or the present?

Slavery? Yes of course it does still exist in many parts of the world

There have even been prosecutions of modern "slavery" in England for example when some Irish criminals were convicted of keeping slaves. Also the trafficking, forced labour and forced prostitution of women and girls by gangs

2) Do we ignore the past, and throw our hands up in gratitude that it ended early which should be deemed as a 'saving grace'? 'It could have dragged on for longer?' (That is not true, but we will not go into that here)

No we don't ignore it but balance and context are required. Do you think the Gov't of the 1830s wanted to compensate slave owners or did they have no legal (at the time) way of avoiding it.

The sad fact is slaves were classed as property. This was a legal issue at the time. Just as children indentured as apprentices to work in a coal mine were also classed as property.

@Flaxmeadow

Who are these people who are supposedly bashing poor white kids?

Provileged middle class London centric liberal progressives in the media and politics. The establishment basically

For example a Labour MP sneering at an England flag that had been put up on a working class street during a major football tournament, put up there probably partly for the benefit of children cheering on their traditional culture (sporting tournaments)

You keep using the Labour MP like its a 'gotcha'.

She was wildly vilified for doing what she did, even by lefty-liberals like me.

She apologised and had to resign.
Interestingly nobody was crying about her right to "free speech" and how appalling "cancel culture" is.

Your whole "Provileged middle class London centric liberal progressives" theory kind of falls apart when you see what Boris Johnson had to say about the working class.

Nobody would describe him as middle class, Liberal or progressive.

He said
"The modern British male is useless. If he is blue collar, he is likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless, and perhaps claiming to suffer from low self-esteem brought on by unemployment"

“Families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole – in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, NEETS, and mug you on the street corner.”

You keep using the Labour MP like its a 'gotcha'.

I've mentioned "a Labour MP" once I think?
Though I may mention them again, with your approval?.

The Labour party is not the same party I grew up with it. Its unrecognisable to me now.

On another tack. I found it interesting that the commission panel were largley from London, or some from Birmingham. Not sure why. I'd have liked to have seen more of the north represented. Especially as most ethnic minorities in the UK live outside London

Flaxmeadow
I've mentioned "a Labour MP" once I think?

Yes, you're right. I do apologise. It was someone else who mentioned it.

Rest of my post still stands.

"The modern British male is useless. If he is blue collar, he is likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless, and perhaps claiming to suffer from low self-esteem brought on by unemployment"

“Families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole – in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, NEETS, and mug you on the street corner.”

Apart from the "drunk criminal" part I think there is some truth in this and I say that as someone who is probably the most traditionally left wing person on this whole thread

Where is this quote from?

But I suppose it depends what you class as a liberal. Johnson is certainly a libertarian but my ire was aimed more at the middle class left establishment. A far cry the left I, and Sewell, grew up with.

The Labour party now is more what we used to call "bleeding heart liberal" than socialist. Seemingly obsessed with anything but traditional working class issues. It's basically middle class and for the middle class now. The working class are, in their eyes, are all red to blue wall brexit gammons. That's how it feels

@Flaxmeadow

So, we come back to the two points you missed.

1) the crux of the issue - does it still persist in the past or the present?

Slavery? Yes of course it does still exist in many parts of the world

There have even been prosecutions of modern "slavery" in England for example when some Irish criminals were convicted of keeping slaves. Also the trafficking, forced labour and forced prostitution of women and girls by gangs

2) Do we ignore the past, and throw our hands up in gratitude that it ended early which should be deemed as a 'saving grace'? 'It could have dragged on for longer?' (That is not true, but we will not go into that here)

No we don't ignore it but balance and context are required. Do you think the Gov't of the 1830s wanted to compensate slave owners or did they have no legal (at the time) way of avoiding it.

The sad fact is slaves were classed as property. This was a legal issue at the time. Just as children indentured as apprentices to work in a coal mine were also classed as property.

1. the crux of the issue - does it still persist in the past or the present?

Slavery? Yes of course it does still exist in many parts of the world

Again, you have missed the point, the generations of children borne from the enslaved are alive and well and living today. Not in the past, and not people that are long gone. They are still subjected to racism today, not the form of chains around the ankles, but chains that limit progress and wealth.

2. Do we ignore the past, and throw our hands up in gratitude...

No we don't ignore it but balance and context are required. Do you think the Gov't of the 1830s wanted to compensate slave owners or did they have no legal (at the time) way of avoiding it.

Again, you are focusing on the perspective of the slave owner and not the enslaved. So, lets follow that road, now that we have paid off the slave owners, will the government then start to pay reparations to the countries in the African continent and the Islands of the Americas?

Are you to blame personally, no. No one is saying that, but does Britain have a debt it needs to repay - yes. And that debt is still owed.

Do you want to shout from the roof top, this is not my fault why should I apologise, well, blame your ancestors - or are they too long gone?

She was wildly vilified for doing what she did, even by lefty-liberals like me.
She apologised and had to resign.
Interestingly nobody was crying about her right to "free speech" and how appalling "cancel culture" is.

She did resign for a while, but it was that she did it int he first place. What on earth was she thinking?

Also the Gordon Brown "bigoted woman" in Rochdale thing. Why?

Again, you are focusing on the perspective of the slave owner and not the enslaved.

No I'm focusing on the law at the time. The 1830s

So, lets follow that road, now that we have paid off the slave owners, will the government then start to pay reparations to the countries in the African continent and the Islands of the Americas?

I think there is a case for financial aid to those countries yes. But we already do that. Whether it's enough I'm not sure about

Are you to blame personally, no. No one is saying that, but does Britain have a debt it needs to repay - yes. And that debt is still owed.

The way I see it is that my English working class ancestors are not responsible for enslaving my slave ancestors because I don't blame them, the English ones, for slavery. If personal reparations were to be paid how would this be raised, from taxation?

Do you want to shout from the roof top, this is not my fault why should I apologise, well, blame your ancestors - or are they too long gone?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't want to shout anything and I don't think anyone should apologise or get on their knees even, for something they have not done

I think there is a case for financial aid to those countries yes. But we already do that. Whether it's enough I'm not sure about

According to academic Jason Hickel, no:

“For every $1 of aid the global South receives, they lose $14 through unequal exchange with the North. Poor countries are developing rich countries, not the other way around.”

twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1377545871223586817?s=21

@Flaxmeadow
This actually makes me really sad. My family are northern and working class too and a mix of white and Jamaican. Nobody is asking for anything apart from equal treatment, now. The past is the past but it does inform how some people relate to black people today. I see it here and in my daily life and it is deeply uncomfortable.
I feel patronised sometimes too. There is a bit of a class divide in truth and a lack of understanding. I don’t think I have ever felt more alienated by politics than recently when obvious anti semitism was being discounted . I’m not Jewish but I understand that when a mass of people are telling you that something is happening, it is time to listen.

According to academic Jason Hickel, no:

“For every $1 of aid the global South receives, they lose $14 through unequal exchange with the North. Poor countries are developing rich countries, not the other way around.”

By the $ signs I'm assuming you mean the USA?

I was discussing the UK in relation to the West Indies. I'm not from the USA

Never understood why Britain buying the freedom of the slaves is seen as a bad thing. The only way to free the slaves was to pay - so everyone in Britain who pays tax has been paying for years to end slavery. If you want to focus on the view of the enslaved - I really dont think they wanted to go on being enslaved. The working class in Britain at the time were treated little better than slaves.

As for the empire - empires are always about the strong taking advantage of the week and as the weak resent it they all contain the seeds of their own destruction. The British empire was just one of a long line of empires, should we expect the Romans to compensate us for their empire? The French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Japanese also had empires and had there been no British empire one or more of those countries would have replaced Britain. Read about the Belgian atrocities in the Congo and you can see why some countries chose to be part of the British empire as the lesser evil.

Education was not always seen as the way out of poverty for all the working class. That would be "getting above yourself" and "no good would come of it". Working class males were proud of their strength, they expected to do manual labour. Women were expected to marry and their pride was in keeping their home clean and food on the table. Less money was spent on schools in working class areas, you needed to be determined, and lucky, to succeed.

This actually makes me really sad. My family are northern and working class too and a mix of white and Jamaican...

Same here but I just feel so let down by Labour now and in so many ways. I look at London and the divide between a north and south left seems even worse, as if another planet and many people here, from all ethnic backgrounds, feel abandoned. There seems to be many people from English, Jamaican and Pakistani heritage here, once staunch Labour voters, who now despise the Labour party.

I find myself watching Sunaks budgets or Kemi Badenochs speech on CRT and think they are more in touch with the working class the LP

*than the LP

[quote Zotter]I think there is a case for financial aid to those countries yes. But we already do that. Whether it's enough I'm not sure about

According to academic Jason Hickel, no:

“For every $1 of aid the global South receives, they lose $14 through unequal exchange with the North. Poor countries are developing rich countries, not the other way around.”

twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1377545871223586817?s=21[/quote]
Enlightening TED talk here.. m.youtube.com/watch?v=7hfFxTbLFWs by Mallence Bart Williams

Also a book called The Looting Machine: Warlords, Tycoons, Smugglers and the Systematic Theft of Africa's Wealth

• about the ongoing exploitation of Africa's precious resources.

@Kamr123
You’re right about the education statistics. As a mother of black boys and an ex teacher it’s a mess. I remember looking at a well known assessment system ( GL) giving me statistics on my class. It was adjusted for expected achievement based on ethnicity. Nobody even seemed to notice and I’m losing energy to be honest. I’m just trying to get my children through it.
@Flaxmeadow I have felt disenfranchised at times but I think it’s not the right way forward for people who have similar issues in some ways to be turning on each other .

It will take a lot to win me back to labour too and I actually like Starmer.

@Blackberrycream

That’s very wrong, isn’t it? Gives a very false sense.

I remember reading that ofsted reports were relative to area so excellent meant excellent for that area not excellent by a national standard.so, a borough like Lambeth might have an excellent school but that is very different to an excellent school in a different area. I think then students see the disparity in skills (knowledge, confidence, etc as well) and wonder what’s happened.