Teacher asked my daughter if she needs a butler because she is doing the 11 plus

[Scubadivinginabox]

We live in an area where there is no 11 plus and thinking of moving to a more rural location near family. Because it's the grammar system there we signed my daughter up for some online classes to work towards the 11 plus. If she gets in great. If not, we'll move there anyway and she can go to the local comp.
No-one where we live has any concept of what the 11 plus involves or the amount of prep work. We haven't told many people that she's doing it because we don't know if she's going to pass and everyone asking how she did is not going to make her feel better if she doesn't get in.
We told my daughter's teacher in confidence at a phone call parents evening. Since then he has mentioned it to the class several times (I overheard on zoom a couple of times) and today he asked my daughter if she needed a butler because she was getting private tuition. WTF?
He is known for his edgy smart alec comments but I feel this time he's just gone too far. Surely as her teacher he should be supporting one of his pupils who is working hard? AIBU?

A one off misjudged comment i would leave, for more than once I would speak to the school. Whether I'd speak to the teacher directly or to the head would depend on DC's relationship with the teacher and what else has been going on. If in doubt on this, I'd speak to the head.

I'd keep the focus on the fact that it's unprofessional to mock ambition and a child's desire to learn, and keep away from the sort of pointless speculation that's in this thread about him having a chip on his shoulder, must be jealous, feeling insecure, getting funny because he doesn't like the idea of a child knowing more than him.

Get in touch with him and tell him to stop - that is totally unprofessional

That is so unprofessional, they should be encouraging a child wanting to learn not mocking them.

we’re in a grammar school area and it’s pretty much impossible to pass without either expensive tutoring or parents giving intensive help to their kids. The stuff on the test isn’t allowed to be taught in state schools. Hence the grammar schools are stuffed to the gills with middle class kids. Social mobility is pretty much non-existent in the system

It's ironic in a way, @Lalliella, because when the 11+ was the norm, loads of working-class kids got places at grammar schools, went on to university (which only 10% of kids did in those days) and thus had upward social mobility.

I was in large primary (approx 70-80 pupils per year group) that was streamed. In the "A stream", over a third of my class passed the 11+, with 5 doing performing well enough to get into independents under the "assisted places" scheme or scholarships. The school's catchment was mostly a large council estate and I have no doubt that the life chances of those who passed were improved massively by that opportunity.

Of course, the downside to that is that the rest didn't, so I'm not convinced it was a good thing overall.

The ideal would be for all schools to be as good as independents and grammars, but that's never going to happen.

@FayleWatersWaters

He sounds vile. Maybe he failed his 11+ and has a chip on his shoulder about it? Definitely complain. Even if your daughter has taken in all in her stride, I'm sure the school would want to know.

He probably didn't take the 11+, depends how old he is but it was abolished a long time ago in most areas. I too thought he has a chip on his shoulder. It's quite low that a person in his position stoops to making sarcastic remarks to a child about something personal. The op has done nothing wrong in finding assistance for her daughter, if he had learned how to teach properly she wouldn't need to.

If it was my child I'd be having a stern word with him, with her dad by side. Two against one seems quite fair in the circumstances.

I think the breach of confidentiality here is pretty serious, tbh, and for that alone, I would be speaking to the HT.

@blackraventower

I honestly think it is best to keep things like private tuition strictly private; other people don't need to know what you and your children do GCSE Maths teacher asked for a show of hands on how many kids were receiving private Maths tuition - about two thirds according to dd!

That's good, he/she was outnumbered! It's almost scandalous that two thirds of a class of children have to have extra tuition and shows the current education system is failing them.

My DM sat and passed the eleven plus. She grew up on a council estate. Usually I’m against petty complaints to schools, but this time I think it’s pretty damn justified. This teachers sound like a total prick.

He's being unprofessional at best. Report him to the head

jessstan2
It's more complicated than that.

Whilst I have my own issues with the education system, students get tutoring for a range of reasons. Some from my experience:

• Child spent 4 years messing around in school and parents undermined the school at every point, their child was never in the wrong, every teacher apparently had it in for them, whatever the situation it was the teacher's fault. In Year 11 the penny dropped that messing around for most of your secondary education isn't going to get you the grades you want. Teachers aren't obliged to spend hours lavishing attention to compensate for 4 years of the student/parents doing nothing, so a private tutor is a solution.
• student had SEN requirements and the school had an excellent track record supporting SEN. Parents felt that DC would benefit from some extra help with revising so they got a tutor. The student's teachers sent key area to Mum and mum let the tutor know.
• Getting a tutor in Year 11 because everyone else does it and it forces DC to do their revision instead of staring at their phones.
• Affluent area so everyone gets tutors
• Child is doing well in most subjects but is struggling in one so they get a tutor as the child works better 1-1 and 1-1 intervention would be an unreasonable expectation of a school.

Of course there's other big issues like not having subject specialist staff, the whack-a-mole approaches some schools take to intervention and systemic issues, but I wouldn't necessarily think a class with lots of private tuition is automatically a reflection on the school/teacher.

Sometimes getting a tutor can also be a hindrance. I've worked with some students and their tutors clearly haven't been in mainstream classrooms in a long time so give terrible advice, have undermined me (by saying things like 'so you class teacher might say... but that's not true' when I'm the one with exam board training), have told students they don't need to learn part of the course, have been artificially high in their marking. I get parents telling me their DC is actually a grade 7 and on track for an 8/you have no faith in my child/you're being unfair in your marking/the department moderation is also wrong because tutor says. I stuck to my guns and said they would get between a 5 or 6, unless they listened to what i was teaching. They prioritised the tutor and on results day the child got a 5.

I, and I'm sure you, routinely did such things in qprimary. It was quite enjoyable and good exercise for the brain/mind to work things out accurately as quickly as possible; however regular practice is essential. Imagine how difficult it would be if you had never done anything like that before. I can envisage blind panic.

What sort of school was that, that you regularly practiced VR and NVR tests in school? They are basically IQ tests that only really measure intelligence if you come to them cold. The 11 plus I did many, many years ago had papers in maths and English, subjects that were obviously done in class, but also verbal reasoning which we most definitely didn’t do in class, in fact never saw even one practice paper.

OP, I would complain to the head; the teacher sounds like a sarcastic immature twit with a chip on his shoulder. Thinks he’s funny but sounds really dim,

We did verbal reasoning though we didn't call it that back then, also puzzles like the NVR shown.

Larkylady: (Re: passing the 11+) Of course, the downside to that is that the rest didn't, so I'm not convinced it was a good thing overall.
...
I don't know. The comprehensives used to be good back in the day. My cousins went to a comp and did brilliantly, it was a great school. I actually wanted to go to a comprehensive but my mother wouldn't let me :-(.

Times have certainly changed as far as education is concerned over the last fifty years or so.

There's a few things wrong here.
The breech of confidentiality is the most serious and absolutely needs to be reported.
However, you'll need to go carefully about the fact that you're effectively "present" during the lessons and so hearing him. Depending on the school's policy. Ours is very strict about other adults being present during the lessons of their own children for the privacy reasons involving the other children.

betterfantasia

What a dreadful, 'know your place' culture your DD is learning in. Well done for trying to get her out of it.

Thank you. Yes, I'll admit there is an element of this in us wanting to move. There are no good secondary schools near us. The school is in an area that has changed and you can see a demographic shift with more MC kids in the lower years and more WC further up the school. This teacher has been at the school for over 20 years. There's zero aspiration. Yes, I want to get her out of here.

@rosiejaune YANBU for not liking how the teacher has behaved, but YABU for saying the 11+ is such hard work. If it is, maybe they shouldn't be taking it.**

I don't get this because there is a ^massive^ academic difference between the lessons at my DD's school and the standard that's required for the 11 plus. And this is a good school according to Ofsted. They rarely get homework. They are not pushed at all if they are bright. Is that her fault? You don't think she should be given the opportunity to learn more than the expected basics? Yes ideally she should have had such a great primary school education that she shouldn't need tutoring but that's not the reality. Even the exceptional kids are being tutored.
And yes, working before and after school every day at 10 years old to keep up with the amount of homework the tutor sets is definitely hard work, for parents too.
The whole thing is bonkers really.

There's a few things wrong here.
The breech of confidentiality is the most serious and absolutely needs to be reported.
However, you'll need to go carefully about the fact that you're effectively "present" during the lessons and so hearing him. Depending on the school's policy. Ours is very strict about other adults being present during the lessons of their own children for the privacy reasons involving the other children.

Does your school expect parents to leave the room in their own house? That's ridiculous. A lot of people only have a computer set up in a common area. There can be no expectation of privacy when homeschooling is involved.

People have very fixed ideas about grammar schools, often having never encountered the system

I was educated in a county with grammar, and now live as an adult in one that doesn't. People are absolutely convinced I must of had acres of private tutors, and gone to an Eton like school, and simply don't believe me I try and explain that it was a fairly rundown and rough school. Ironically the area I live in now is full of private schools, and has a high rate of private tuition as the norm but people are incredibly snobby about grammar schools being too posh.

I have learnt not to discuss it even when relevant because aparrently people just don't believe me and just want to spot of stereotypes even when I don't fit them (single parent family, working class, council house and minority)

Nith - I'd seriously question why state school teachers can't teach bright children towards passing 11+. We're always told how it's a normal part of a teacher's job to differentiate and to stretch the brightest pupils: isn't teaching them the material to pass the 11+ if they want to try just as valid a means of stretching them as anything else?

This doesn't happen unless dc are at a private prep school. Passing the 11+ means kids sitting non-verbal and verbal reasoning papers, which just aren't part of the NC. Teachers in state schools do differentiate teaching, but only on subjects that are part of the NC, by asking kids to go deeper into them.

Stupid teacher. I lived in a pretty crap area of south east London growing up. We all did the 11 plus. The school I went to had a banding system. Top band for those that passed, middle, bottom and remedial for everyone else. If you worked hard you could move up to top band. There were grammar schools too. If we were far from posh! In a family of 4 girls, two of us passed, two of us didn’t.

It's disgusting that he said this he literally shouldn't be teaching children if that is what he thinks. I would raise it at the highest level and say you will complain to Ofsted if the school don't address it. (And I say that as someone who is very anti grammar schools)!!

However, separate point - it is TRAGIC that the 11 plus can't be taken by a bright child from ANY primary school - the WHOLE POINT of grammar - should in theory be to offer a great education to the brightest children of all backgrounds.

It is a wonderful example of what is deeply deeply wrong with the 11 plus that your daughter needs tuition to take it - and that it exposes the very fact that not all children in state schools are getting a fair and decent education.

Grammar schools make me feel enraged! They are so wrong - they cream off the families who can commit massively to suppoirting their kids (not just financially - but with time and input) and they massively skew towards the middle classes.

I live in a London borough near Kent - at 11 years old all the middle class families leave - our local secondary schools are among the TEN WORST IN THE UK. Despite this being a massively gentrified area - all the kids who can't either go private or go to grammar are left in sink schools - without the vital input of all those lovely bright kids who would improve the lesson discussions/ the families who would push for the secondaries to be improved.

We will never have a fair country until children all learn together and we are all in it together. For some reason I am more enraged by grammar than private as it's just so unjust.

Some teachers sadly have an issue with the grammar school system and by the sounds of it this teacher is one of them. No way should he be saying stuff like this to her.

That is terrible. When we were moving from primary school to a grammar (similar to you and moving areas) the teachers actually started to do some verbal and non verbal reasoning for all the class as they thought it would be useful for all of the class to learn. They were really supportive. We only had 1 month to prepare because we had missed the deadline and he was late tested in February and the bits and pieces done in the class definitely helped towards him achieving a score to get into the grammar school.

I would definitely speak to the teacher and ask if he realises that grammar schools are not fee paying ...

When he asked that she should have elbowed her books/bag whatever off her desk and onto the floor, clicked her fingers and ordered the pathetic worm to pick them up.

I get that lots of people have an issue with the grammar system, but I don’t see how they possibly justify picking on an 11 year old in front of her peers because of it. It’s not as if the child is personally responsible for the unfairness of it all.

This sort of thing happened to me in Y7; form tutor was checking parents contact details by reading them out to the class. She had my dad down as Mr so I corrected her that he was Dr and she went “oooh, Dr! La di da!” So then I had the annoying boys from the class following me round saying “la di da” and me worrying that I’d done something wrong and must have deserved it, because teachers were always right, weren’t they?

Send him some vinegar for the chip on his shoulder.