To think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

[MinnieMous3]

Inspired by another thread, do you think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

As in, independence for independence’s sake rather than because it will actually benefit the country, leaving everyone in an expensive mess?

There seem to be so many parallels - a leader who is good at the battle cry but seems unable to produce a clear plan of what would happen afterwards, paranoia that the union in question is ‘out to get’ them in some way, and complete denial of the perks of being part of it.

I know this may get heated so please play nicely!

@UnderHisAye

I'm finding this thread a bit uncomfortable now. English posters demanding we justify specifically why we'd like the chance to govern our own nation. Guess what, we don't have to fucking justify it to you. Who exactly are you to demand we explain ourselves?

I'm out.

It was exactly the same during the independence referendum, a not-particually subtle undertone of anti-scottish xenophobia pervades this board like a virus.

I'm Scottish. What material, measurable benefits would independence give Scotland?

@UrAWizHarry what is anti Scottish or xenophobic about asking (not demanding, people are free to answer or not) how independence would work on a practical level? Rather than vague notions of national pride, or how much you hate the tories?

It isn’t an unreasonable ask by English people, as it will affect us enormously as well - we share a border, share a currency, many Scots live in England and vice versa, students at each other’s universities, businesses with offices in both countries, people with family in both countries, transport linking the two together... need I go on? Not to mention the huge financial ramifications to us, as I don’t believe Scotland have the money to pay for all of these changes.

Your absurd claims of xenophobia are used to detract from the real issues at hand, and throw paraffin onto the flames to keep the ‘the English are so awful’ fire.

An independent Scotland would finance itself the same way England does.

It's not difficult.

Taxes
Exports
Tourism
Borrowing

@forfucksakenett

An independent Scotland would finance itself the same way England does.

It's not difficult.

Taxes
Exports
Tourism
Borrowing

Very in depth and compelling, threads basically over now.

Why? How more specific do you want?

I've also never ever heard independence justified because 'we are the bestest wee country ever' or with a picture of a mountain.

I don't need to rethink that, UrAWizHarry. I've thought about it long and hard.

None of the parties represent my priorities completely, so I'm considering which issues are most important to me. I'm not a fan of the Tories at all, and I've never voted for them before, but they aren't erasing women in the way that the other parties seem to be doing with pride.

They aren't great, they aren't even good, but as a British Woman living in Scotland, they are the least worst option right now. In the past, I'd have been considered a "lefty" and decidedly anti-Tory, but things have changed so much recently. I cannot turn a blind eye to it in the name of Scottish pride. An independent Scotland run by people with such little regard for women's rights would be a nightmare. I can't do much about it, except vote for who I think is the least worst option. I wish there was a party really worth voting for. I have voted SNP in the past, but I won't again. I know many women in Scotland who feel exactly the same.

Your voting for the Tories because you want to support women?

Eh...

Benefits cap for two children unless raped of course. Needs proved though.
Bedroom tax (disproportionately affects women)
Benefits sanctions (again disproportionately affects women)
Absolute refusal to help the waspi women
General sexist behaviour such as the Tory MP who said women wouldn't get raped if they keep their knickers on?

Aye sounds like a good plan. The party for women!

You're

@forfucksakenett

Why? How more specific do you want?

Well what you said applies to every country in the world. What would make Scotland successful enough to keep a quality of lifestyle and economy good enough to rejoin the EU?

Yes exactly. It applies to every country in the world. Finally that concession from you!

We would be as successful as other small and similar countries. We're not trying to be the UAE. What would make us less successful? We have people to pay taxes, at a similar level to England, we have stuff to sell, we have people who want to come. I don't see the problem.

That would be up to Europe to decide. Not sure if Europe would be an option. Don't know that I care either way.

For Scotland, leaving the UK is a much bigger deal than the UK leaving the EU.

A massive amount of our trade is with the rest of the UK. Our economies are inextricably linked, in a deeper way than the economy of the UK to the rest of the EU. A recent LSE study estimated the impact of Scottish independence on Scotland to be 2-3 times larger than Brexit.

I am not against independence, in fact I voted Yes in 2014. But I think the economic case is much worse than I realised, then, for a couple of reasons.

• If Brexit has taught us anything, it is that politics trumps economic interest when it comes to negotiating separation. We will be facing a Tory led rUK who will ruthlessly push for its own political interests. All the nationalist talk I remember well from 2014 ("it's in their interest to share the currency") is absolutely, fundamentally, hollow bullshit.

• Oil is yesterday's resource. It isn't worth much going forward.

• The currency question has no good answer that the electorate want to hear. There are only fictions to cover up the realities.

I would be prepared to vote for an honest independence case. That case would be based on autonomy, sovereignty, and facing up to the fact that we simply cannot run a 10% deficit and be credible. An independent Scotland will cut spending harshly, that is a fact. I am ok with that. The electorate won't be, so they can't tell us it and win. So I won't vote for the fiction.

No @forfucksakenett, they aren't the "party for women". But they're the only party who can define "woman" and who aren't looking to open up women only spaces to men. The other parties think that being a woman is simply "feeling like a woman" and are happy for men to have access to women's bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons, refuges, etc. They want to replace sex with gender. Without sex we can't have sex based protection - the very basis of women's rights. The SNP actions around the Hate Crime Bill were worrying too. A vote for the Tories may not be a vote "for women", but a vote for the SNP is a vote "against women".

@forfucksakenett

Yes exactly. It applies to every country in the world. Finally that concession from you!

We would be as successful as other small and similar countries. We're not trying to be the UAE. What would make us less successful? We have people to pay taxes, at a similar level to England, we have stuff to sell, we have people who want to come. I don't see the problem.

That would be up to Europe to decide. Not sure if Europe would be an option. Don't know that I care either way.

Which other small and similar country?

@Huggybear16

No *@forfucksakenett*, they aren't the "party for women". But they're the only party who can define "woman" and who aren't looking to open up women only spaces to men. The other parties think that being a woman is simply "feeling like a woman" and are happy for men to have access to women's bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons, refuges, etc. They want to replace sex with gender. Without sex we can't have sex based protection - the very basis of women's rights. The SNP actions around the Hate Crime Bill were worrying too. A vote for the Tories may not be a vote "for women", but a vote for the SNP is a vote "against women".

The SNP aren't systematically making sure that women are poorer and weaker. The Tories are doing that.

The definition of woman has not changed despite the hyperbole surrounding trans rights and the HCB. Women are still protected (not under the HCB) and more sex based legislation is in the offing in the form of the misogyny bill.

I don't actually agree with this approach but I still fully believe that in a day to day lived experience it will be safer and better to be a woman in Scotland than in England.

If you think that trans rights aren't going to rolled out over the whole of the western world the. You are sadly mistaken. These sex based spaces are lost in the uk or will be in the next year or so. What government in 2021 is going to say that a transwoman can't use a female toilet / changing room? That ship has sailed.

I really wouldn't get excited by the "ifs and buts". Alex Salmond's new party will screw the whole thing by splitting the vote. I cant see him collaborating with the SNP.

@PearlclutchersInc

Unfortunately, that is potentially not the case, due to the idiosyncrasies of the Scottish electoral system.

It is extremely difficult for the SNP to win the regional proportional representation seats, because the system is explicitly designed to award them disproportionately to parties that don't win many constituencies.

By standing in the regional PR seats only, Salmond is offering an efficient way to "harvest" the second regional vote every person has, for the nationalist cause. Hence the "supermajority" mantra.

We might end up with more independence MSPs - I hope the Unionist parties come to some tactical arrangement, because this election is quickly becoming a proxy for another indy referendum.

@PearlclutchersInc

I really wouldn't get excited by the "ifs and buts". Alex Salmond's new party will screw the whole thing by splitting the vote. I cant see him collaborating with the SNP.

Completely wrong.

It's a list party.

It has the potential to strengthen the case for indy. Fingers crossed.

@MinnieMous3 Ireland?

@Dissimilitude Douglas Ross is trying to arrange that as we type! Usually an association with a Tory is the kids of death in Scotland but who knows.

But also one which has had 2 women leaders resulting in 2 women Prime Ministers, while none of the other UK parties have even had a female leader (except the SNP).

I think Leanne Woods was the Plaid Cymru leader wasn’t she?

And Jo Swinson was leader of the Lib Dems (though you might have blinked and missed that),

And Caroline Lucas was only one of several woman leaders of the Greens.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44313934

So what would you like to see happen @forfucksakenett? What do you think we have to look forward to in an independent Scotland? I've been back and forth, but right now I'm on the remain side. I just feel let down by every single party, I really don't know who we should look to for a "better" future, with our rights intact. It doesn't feel like anyone is representing the women here, just their own interests, which I guess is the same in every party. What is actually good about the SNP, rather than what is bad about the Tories?

forfucksakenett, no, actually Scotland doesn’t have the same proportion of taxpayers as England. Far more jobs in Scotland are public sector- which means they are not “paying tax” in any meaningful sense. They are just giving back a slice of the income donated to them by taxation of the much smaller private sector.
The SNP do nothing to increase the private sector or boost industry. Scotland has the lowest proportion of new business start ups in the entire UK.
Further, many of Scotland’s biggest companies, including RBS, with assets of £14 billion, are registered in London as British companies, because Scotland can’t afford to underwrite them if they fail.
That means, in the event of independence, you will lose all their corporation tax, which would be paid to HMRC in England.

Independence would be a financial disaster.

[quote forfucksakenett]@MinnieMous3 Ireland? [/quote]
Ireland struggled for years before becoming a tax haven. I can't see the SNP slashing Corporation Tax, they'll whack it up on ideological grounds and drive businesses away.