To think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

[MinnieMous3]

Inspired by another thread, do you think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

As in, independence for independence’s sake rather than because it will actually benefit the country, leaving everyone in an expensive mess?

There seem to be so many parallels - a leader who is good at the battle cry but seems unable to produce a clear plan of what would happen afterwards, paranoia that the union in question is ‘out to get’ them in some way, and complete denial of the perks of being part of it.

I know this may get heated so please play nicely!

This is largely what I don’t get because I don’t think there is a guarantee (and arguably a likelihood of) Scotland being accepted into the EU now. So it would be Scotland on its own.

In fact, I recall that the EU stance during the previous Indy referendum was that Scotland wouldn’t be immediately be accepted into the EU independently of the UK. The SNP conveniently took no notice of this.

That was before Brexit, though. I don’t know whether they would say the same now, especially since there was such a strong Remain vote in Scotland.

Other than that, I think the Scottish people should have a right to an Indy referendum if the SNP achieve an overall majority in the Scottish elections. (I’m not Scottish myself, so I have no personal opinion on the issue myself.)

Fair point 😂 he was cleared though wasn’t he?

Alex Salmond was acquitted of sexual assault in a criminal court. But he admitted to being sexually inappropriate with colleagues, which by definition constitutes sexual harassment.

@Mittens030869

Fair point 😂 he was cleared though wasn’t he?

Alex Salmond was acquitted of sexual assault in a criminal court. But he admitted to being sexually inappropriate with colleagues, which by definition constitutes sexual harassment.

Oh dear what a choice, either a party with a leader who has admitted that, or one which can’t tell a man and a woman apart.

I am a Scot living in Scotland. I think Scottish independence would be far far worse than Brexit and an even bigger and costlier mistake. Let's come together folks, not splinter apart.

Ok, so let's leave the UK and join the EU. That's coming together.

Oh dear sad what a choice, either a party with a leader who has admitted that, or one which can’t tell a man and a woman apart.

Or a choice between a party that IS really only one man with a grudge (The George Galloway Fan Club 2 Party) or a larger, wider party with a diverse membership that has ambitions beyond settling some personal score.

@TheSandman

Yes, obviously, if it’s genuinely an option. The EU said no to that happening last time. Hopefully, the Scottish people won’t vote for something that isn’t actually possible.

I think a PP is confusing 'anti-English' with being fucked off with votes and opinions in Scotland carrying no weight in the UK as a whole.

It is crap @MinnieMous3 that we have this choice, and on the UK level a womanising cheating lying potential domestic abuser who looks likely to carry the vote for some time to come.

What a country.

The EU said no to that happening last time.

There is no 'last time'. Scotland has never applied to join the EU.

as for something that isn’t actually possible.

Scotland joining the EU IS possible. It would be the same process as any other state wanting to join. Because of our recent membership (as part of the UK) we already meet many of the criteria (on food health and safety workers' rights etc. standards) needed to be fully eligible.

@UnderHisAye

It is crap *@MinnieMous3* that we have this choice, and on the UK level a womanising cheating lying potential domestic abuser who looks likely to carry the vote for some time to come.

What a country.

Agreed I suppose at some point Bj will be kicked out of number 10, but I imagine once you’ve given away women’s rights it’s very hard to row back on.

There are many parallels between the brexit argument and Scottish independence movement. Both are financial stupidity and based on idea of identity trumping practicality. But the SNP acolytes will twist themselves in knots trying to claim like they’re not like those awful brexiteers. If anything Scottish independence is even more moronic than brexit due to considerably closer links and financial/ trading connections. That’s why the independence movement always keeps quiet about the practicalities of it as they know it is idiocy of the highest order. The left leaning yessers don’t seem to understand that you need a thriving economy and high taxes to pay for Nordic nirvana that they claim we’ll have. Totally heart over head for most of them

@TheSandman

The EU said no to that happening last time.

There is no 'last time'. Scotland has never applied to join the EU.

as for something that isn’t actually possible.

Scotland joining the EU IS possible. It would be the same process as any other state wanting to join. Because of our recent membership (as part of the UK) we already meet many of the criteria (on food health and safety workers' rights etc. standards) needed to be fully eligible.

Which hasn't happened in decades for individual countries. The EU enlargement involving the Eastern European States was part of a special EU led accelerated entry oricedure, and it still took 12 years and involved the EU dictating which laws and government structures had to be changed in order to be compatible with EU law.

@TheSandman

No, true. But it was discussed during Indy 2014 and the EU made it clear that an independent Scotland wouldn’t be automatically guaranteed to be admitted into the EU. If they applied, it might be some years before they can join.

So that does need to be made clear when discussing the benefits or otherwise of independence.

An independent Scotland would be very foolish indeed and wrong if it thought that by using the pound as its currency the BoE would have to bail them out if they were in difficulty. Why would they want to use a currency over which they had no control?

They are nowhere near the debt ratio required to join the EU. Not sure how long that would take. However, I can see the EU making an exception. Good luck - Italy currently owes trillions of euros it has no intention of repaying, hope you have deep pockets.

I believe only 18% of Scots want to join the Euro if they eventually join the EU. Unrealistic since all new countries have to adopt the Euro.

If Sturgeon really wants independence, she should give the English the vote. There are probably enough of them these days fed up with anti-English stuff coming out of Scotland who will ensure a Yes vote

Anyway all of this is irrelevant since the Prime Minister has to give approval for another indyref and I don't see it happening any time soon.

Yes he will be voted out at some point @MinnieMous3, but my issue is that, much like Trump, the standard of an acceptable leader has been brought low in the meantime. What might the next guy be capable of?

all new countries have to adopt the Euro.

This old chestnut.

No. They. Don't.

They have to sign up to joining the Euro at some point in the future...when conditions are right... and if they feel like it... and sometimes never. New applicants to the EU have to commit to joining the Eurozone at some unspecified time in the future but not actually do it.

changed in order to be compatible with EU law.

Most of our laws are already compatible with EU law.

I think having Ian Blackford as you representative in Westminster has been a great move for the SNP to ensure the English are thoroughly pissed off with the Scottish! His constant refrain - 'The people of Scotland----' really pisses me off given that 1 million Scots voted for Brexit! He really is an absolute arse, always abhorred him since he stood against Charles Kennedy and the appalling treatment him and his cronies metered out to Kennedy who died only months later.

Why doesn’t England get its own devolved parliament?

Then Westminster could focus on UK issues only.

Corcory 100% agree re Blackford. As soon as he opens his mouth all I can hear is whine, blah, blah, whine. Hideous.

@TheSandman

changed in order to be compatible with EU law.

Most of our laws are already compatible with EU law.

They're not. Much of the property legislation is in breach of EU competition law and certain EU Charter of Fundamental Rights (not the ECHR rights which are more basic). Never mind aspects of the new Hate Crime Bill.

I don't think an audit has ever been carried out of EU law compatibility of Scots law, and I don't think new Scottish legislation is ever audited for it either, judging by the state of some of it.

YABU OP, because at least with Brexit we had a fallback infrastructure and currency. Scotland has neither, plus a massive deficit and add into the mix putting barriers up with its largest and nearest trading partner.

Multiple studies have been shelved that have tried to cost the price of Scotland leaving the Union. Decades of austerity would follow succession. Only 50% of adults actually pay income tax in Scotland and a large % of those are employed by the public sector (so effectively being paid out of income tax). One study identified raising VAT to 49% as an option. I cannot even imagine the impact on the already growing child poverty/ attainment gap.
I hope in the clamour for another referendum we see a costed plan and currency option (GBP is not it if we want a lender of last resort).

@MrsAmaretto

Why doesn’t England get its own devolved parliament?

Then Westminster could focus on UK issues only.

Because then we would live in a completely federal system - each parliament would have to send proportionate number of representatives to WM, and therefore England would still dominate with the most members.

It is normal for a country to govern itself. Scotland is abnormal in not governing itself.

An independent Scotland would have access to the economic levers which would allow it to grow its economy in a way that being part of the UK will never permit.

Scottish thinktanks such as Commonweal have put a considerable amount of work and thought into how an independent Scotland could establish itself and be successful.

There is not one country which has gained independence from the UK over the past 100 years (or longer) which has begged to be taken back in. I always thought it was ironic that the day after the 2014 indyref, one of the royal family (Charles, I think) travelled to tiny Malta to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Maltese independence and yet the majority of Scots had just been frightened into thinking that Scotland, which has far greater resources than Malta, couldn't go it alone. The question is not whether Scotland could be an independent country but whether it should. Frankly, looking at the clusterbourach unrolling before our eyes in England, it is harder and harder to see why anyone in Scotland would actively choose to stay in the UK.

Scotland has the natural resources and the talent to become a successful independent country if its people decide to go down that route.