To think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

[MinnieMous3]

Inspired by another thread, do you think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

As in, independence for independence’s sake rather than because it will actually benefit the country, leaving everyone in an expensive mess?

There seem to be so many parallels - a leader who is good at the battle cry but seems unable to produce a clear plan of what would happen afterwards, paranoia that the union in question is ‘out to get’ them in some way, and complete denial of the perks of being part of it.

I know this may get heated so please play nicely!

Scotland has the natural resources

Like what? The oil industry isn’t enough to keep it afloat even now. As for wood, you’ll never be able to compete with Scandinavia. Plus a lot of Scotland is pretty uninhabitable.

the majority of Scots had just been frightened into thinking that Scotland, which has far greater resources than Malta, couldn't go it alone.

You can’t say with any certainty what they were thinking.

@MinnieMous3

Scotland has the natural resources

Like what? The oil industry isn’t enough to keep it afloat even now. As for wood, you’ll never be able to compete with Scandinavia. Plus a lot of Scotland is pretty uninhabitable.

the majority of Scots had just been frightened into thinking that Scotland, which has far greater resources than Malta, couldn't go it alone.

You can’t say with any certainty what they were thinking.

Like what?

Like electricity and water.

A hell of a lot of which is used in England.

And have you seen a map of the size of Scottish waters as compared to England's? Most those 'British Fish' Jacob Rees-Mogg loves so much are Scottish.

Scotland has the ... talent
Why are the current government in Holyrood so inept then? I wouldn't trust them to run a bath, let alone a health service and schools. It's quite possible that with a different one they might make a success of it (maybe they could become a tax haven like Ireland) but with the SNP running it, Scotland would be like a banana republic, only without the bananas.

I reckon that the best way to guarantee a Yes vote is to extend the franchise to the English and tell them that if they vote Yes they'll never have to hear from Nicola Sturgeon again. The majority would be overwhelming.

Thank you all for an interesting thread during my insomnia.

I am English married to a Scortish man living in England.

I like Scotland as a place to visit but find it to be quite insular, overtly patriotic and chippy and the secularism is shocking (sorry, just my personal opinion, I could be wrong and obvs not true for all Scots). It's interesting to read that it is aiming to model itself on Nordic principles in the future. My DH left Scotland decades ago due to the lack of opportunity and the secularism (job interviews where the first question you were asked was which school you went to and you were immediately rejected if the school was of the opposing religion of the hiring manager).

My DH is anti independence because of the finances but most of his relatives who live in Scotland are pro SNP. I was always on the fence but tbh sick of the rabid anti English Facebook shit I see from my Scottish relatives and now i just think to myself "so fuck off then" although obviously I just keep quiet.

But agree with the sentiment that Brexit would be a walk in the park compared to the shitshow that would be Scexit.

FGS, my paragraphs have disappeared.

Paragraphs look fine to me. When you say "secularism", do you mean "sectarianism"? Secularism is the separation of church and state which is the opposite of the problem you describe.

Well thanks for your generalised, wildly outdated, and stereotypical characterisation of a country you haven't lived in.

Also, it's sectarianism.

Sorry but it's laughable to compare empire countries declaring independence to Scotland doing it. We share an island, a border, a language, a culture, and countless institutions.

@UnderHisAye

Yes of course, sectarianism. I promise you I am aware of the correct term but it was either an auto correct fail or a product of my having only 2 hours sleep last night.

I've moved from a reluctant no to a firm yes on independence and that is mostly due to the sheer contempt that Westminster and the Tories show to Scotland. Its clear that the only way to be shot of those toxic fuckers is to become independent.

@UrAWizHarry

I've moved from a reluctant no to a firm yes on independence and that is mostly due to the sheer contempt that Westminster and the Tories show to Scotland. Its clear that the only way to be shot of those toxic fuckers is to become independent.

What do you think will be better after independence? Can you be specific?

I don't think it's comparable to Brexit.

However, as a Scottish woman in Scotland, I really hope this doesn't happen. I'm sick of hearing crap like "dragged out of the EU against our will" and Sturgeon's ultra woke nonsense. FWIW, I voted remain and I also used to vote SNP. Sturgeon and her crowd have thrown women under the bus and I'll never support Sturgeon/SNP again unless there is a massive shift away from this erasure of women.

We need to move forward from Brexit, as part of the UK. I don't think we should have left the EU, but I don't think we should join again either. We also need to realise that the hard earned women's rights need to be protected. I never thought I'd say this, but the best chance we have of achieving this is with the Tories. I've never voted Tory before, but I just might now.

"What do you think will be better after independence? Can you be specific?"

What will be a great improvement is that the tories won't get a look in to the running of the country.

After 10 years of the fucking shambles we've experienced I simply cannot understand why anyone would vote for the conservatives ever again, but here we are. Sooner we get shot of them the better, their leader doesn't even have the good manners to call the governing party of Scotland by their correct name.

I want to be governed by a party that doesn't look down upon an entire country with utter disdain. I think that's a fairly basic request.

"We also need to realise that the hard earned women's rights need to be protected. I never thought I'd say this, but the best chance we have of achieving this is with the Tories."

What, the tory party with the poorest representation of women out of any major political party in the UK? The tory party lead by a serial womaniser, racist and mysogynist who goes about saying things like the best way to treat professional women is to “just pat her on the bottom and send her on her way? " A party with sexist-and-proud mps like JR Mogg, Cameron, Hammond et al? The rape clause?

Yeah, might want to rethink that one.

@UrAWizHarry

"What do you think will be better after independence? Can you be specific?"

What will be a great improvement is that the tories won't get a look in to the running of the country.

After 10 years of the fucking shambles we've experienced I simply cannot understand why anyone would vote for the conservatives ever again, but here we are. Sooner we get shot of them the better, their leader doesn't even have the good manners to call the governing party of Scotland by their correct name.

I want to be governed by a party that doesn't look down upon an entire country with utter disdain. I think that's a fairly basic request.

Okay, so that’s all emotion/identity politics.

Can you be more specific about how Scotland will actually be better off, and why?

It seems like you’re basing your vote on what you don’t want rather than what you do, which is Brexit all over again.

"Can you be more specific about how Scotland will actually be better off, and why?"

I've told you. I want my country to be governed by a party that actually has the interests of Scotland at heart. It's clear the tories do not; and that the tories are going to remain in power in Westminster for some time yet. That has what has changed my mind from indyref 1.

I think Scotland, like many other small countries in the world, is perfectly capable of managing it's own affairs and prospering ather than being part of an unbalanced union with an abusive partner.

@UrAWizHarry

"We also need to realise that the hard earned women's rights need to be protected. I never thought I'd say this, but the best chance we have of achieving this is with the Tories."

What, the tory party with the poorest representation of women out of any major political party in the UK? The tory party lead by a serial womaniser, racist and mysogynist who goes about saying things like the best way to treat professional women is to “just pat her on the bottom and send her on her way? " A party with sexist-and-proud mps like JR Mogg, Cameron, Hammond et al? The rape clause?

Yeah, might want to rethink that one.

But also one which has had 2 women leaders resulting in 2 women Prime Ministers, while none of the other UK parties have even had a female leader (except the SNP).

@UrAWizHarry

"Can you be more specific about how Scotland will actually be better off, and why?"

I've told you. I want my country to be governed by a party that actually has the interests of Scotland at heart. It's clear the tories do not; and that the tories are going to remain in power in Westminster for some time yet. That has what has changed my mind from indyref 1.

I think Scotland, like many other small countries in the world, is perfectly capable of managing it's own affairs and prospering ather than being part of an unbalanced union with an abusive partner.

Okay, let’s say independence happens and a party has power which ‘has Scotland at heart’.

How are they going to make Scotland a success as an independent country?

But also one which has had 2 women leaders resulting in 2 women Prime Ministers, while none of the other UK parties have even had a female leader (except the SNP).

I think Leanne Woods was the Plaid Cymru leader wasn’t she?

Regardless, it is interesting that the tories have had 2 female prime ministers, and Labour zero.

I’m inclined to believe Labour are all hot air these days, the proof is in the pudding and they’ve had a male leader every single time. Are none of their female candidates good enough to cut the mustard??

As for the Tories, yes they’re absolutely sexist in a fuddy-duddy, pat them on the bottom way. I’ll be interested to see whether over time, new members continue this or whether it was more of a product of the current members’ age/upbringing etc

I'm finding this thread a bit uncomfortable now. English posters demanding we justify specifically why we'd like the chance to govern our own nation. Guess what, we don't have to fucking justify it to you. Who exactly are you to demand we explain ourselves?

I'm out.

What, the tory party with the poorest representation of women out of any major political party in the UK? The tory party lead by a serial womaniser, racist and mysogynist who goes about saying things like the best way to treat professional women is to “just pat her on the bottom and send her on her way? " A party with sexist-and-proud mps like JR Mogg, Cameron, Hammond et al? The rape clause?
Compared with the SNP who don't even know what a woman is.

@UnderHisAye

I'm finding this thread a bit uncomfortable now. English posters demanding we justify specifically why we'd like the chance to govern our own nation. Guess what, we don't have to fucking justify it to you. Who exactly are you to demand we explain ourselves?

I'm out.

Oh, please. You’re ‘out’ because you have nothing to say other than how shit the Tories are, and how patriotic and great an independent Scotland would be.

As independence would affect England, and probably cost us a huge amount of money, I have every right to discuss it, and posters can reply to me if they wish. There’s no demand about it, it just suits your narrative to frame this with the usual ‘nasty English people’ agenda.

Personally I think the fact you can’t see that this also effects English people, and therefore they are entitled to have an opinion, is very representative of the fact you have zero idea about the whole thing beyond ‘independence innit’.

@DdraigGoch

What, the tory party with the poorest representation of women out of any major political party in the UK? The tory party lead by a serial womaniser, racist and mysogynist who goes about saying things like the best way to treat professional women is to “just pat her on the bottom and send her on her way? " A party with sexist-and-proud mps like JR Mogg, Cameron, Hammond et al? The rape clause? Compared with the SNP who don't even know what a woman is.

But not knowing what a woman is is ‘woke’ and therefore more acceptable 🙄

OP, you will have a very long wait if you expect SNP supporters to produce evidence of any possible financial benefit to Scotland from going independent!
Mainly because there isn’t a single one. There would be decades of austerity, trying to deal with an 8% deficit while simultaneously paying billions to:
set up our own central bank, royal mint and currency,
build, staff and maintain over 200 embassies around the world, previously provided by the UK,
set up and staff our own benefits and pensions system
recruit and equip our own armed forces
ditto intelligence network to replace GCHQ
set up our own version of DVLC
cope with the £12 billion annual loss of the Barnett subsidy from England....
Need I continue?!

@UnderHisAye

I'm finding this thread a bit uncomfortable now. English posters demanding we justify specifically why we'd like the chance to govern our own nation. Guess what, we don't have to fucking justify it to you. Who exactly are you to demand we explain ourselves?

I'm out.

I'm Scottish, in Scotland, and I'd quite like it justified too.

Its always these vague, woolly statements like "Scotland is the best wee country in the world" or "Scotland has everything - mountains, lochs and sea".

I'd honestly like to hear how the 50% of Scottish adults who actually pay income tax (33% of whom work for the public sector) would fund the problems of mainly urban-based poverty, addiction, lack of education fulfillment, etc in a country which also has to fund services to the far north and highlands and islands.