To think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

[MinnieMous3]

Inspired by another thread, do you think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

As in, independence for independence’s sake rather than because it will actually benefit the country, leaving everyone in an expensive mess?

There seem to be so many parallels - a leader who is good at the battle cry but seems unable to produce a clear plan of what would happen afterwards, paranoia that the union in question is ‘out to get’ them in some way, and complete denial of the perks of being part of it.

I know this may get heated so please play nicely!

I voted for independence but I wouldn't just now. The SNP had a chance to make a difference but they haven't. Instead they have pushed forward some backhand changes that many Scots aren't aware if and of those that are many are appalled. The current SNP instead of seizing the chance to make Sotland's economy, education, health etc the best in the UK have failed to keep the staus quo let alone improve it.
However, the UK, as it stands today, doesn't work. The reality is for many people they feel like England is the power base, the overlord. This is not a partnership and it isn't healthy. If, and it's a big if, people want the UK to continue it needs to change. Perhaps a whole new way of governance, certainly more open and honest dialogue in all areas. Brexit has given us a chance to look at ourselves and remove the rot, change what doesn't work and accept that Scotland will want different things to Wales who will want different things to England and NI. Find common ground but embrace our differences or for good or bad there will be no UK left.

[quote forfucksakenett]@Scottishskifun we'll need to agree to disagree. We're in charge of sticking plasters for poverty- education, health. We're not in charge of the mechanisms to help the poorest in society.

For as long as we have a Tory government they will have benefit cuts, sanctions and bedroom tax. The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer.

The once in a generation phrase was part of the campaign to get people to vote. It wasn't a legally binding promise. It wasn't even a promise. There has also been a significant material changes since then. [/quote]
I believe those things are pretty major and the way you get people out of poverty is to improve health, improve social community programmes, give opportunity for equal education and development and encourage businesses with apprenticeships. The SG is in charge of all of these areas and could do something but no they beat a drum to say we should all go independent rather than even bothering to try to fix what they are in charge of.

I have very little faith in them given and on many levels recently they have shown they are just as bad as other political parties with scandals.

The SG do cover bedroom tax, have additional benefits in place. But the big question is who is going to pay for all of the wonderful Scottish benefits when the economy is already on its knees and large companies move offices?! (which can't be ignored as they already switched)

I voted SNP last time but I wouldn't trust them with independence to sort out. They have had years to sort out the other messes and they still haven't!

You clearly fall into independence at any cost camp, I however am not and will not vote for it when so much of the economy is on its arse.

@DdraigGoch

I know many welsh people myself included who do not consider themselves British. I am not British, I find it really insulting to be called British. I do not identify with a country that anxed my country and forced a language and cultures on them because they felt the welsh people were “savages” so no I’m not British thank you very much. Therefore, I cannot support a Great Britain it has come from colonialism and it’s wrong.

@Scottishskifun no not clearly independence at any cost. I believe it's the best course of action.

Education and health are important but those alone will not pull people out o poverty when a government doesn't have full control of its finances.

Education can't undo the horror of a kid forced to rely on a food bank because mum has been Sanctioned and there's no money at home. Do you think that kid is managing to do their homework? Do you think that kid is concentrating in class?

@forfucksakenett mum will still have to rely on a food bank if there isn't a decent enough economy to pay for the benefit in the first place and less to go around as more people are having to claim due to lack of jobs.

Free school meals and targeting can help those children improve in school yes with the right support. I've seen it for myself and used to volunteer on programmes encouraging disadvantaged children from very poor inner city areas to stay in education and provide them with the right support (this was in England).

If the economy is shot to pieces (which currently it is) there is very little money to pay for it all.
Big Companies won't accept paying more corporation taxes when they can simply move a office to Carlisle, Berwick or tweedside.
The super rich will just use smart accountants to bypass or simply state their main residence is in England which leaves who to pay for it all?
The middle people?! The ones who just about afford nursery fees and a mortgage?!

Remember by the way that this comes after the billions spent in negotiations which we know is the cost after brexit.

Given the SG has shown their inept running of education do you really trust them to set up major departments and the thousands of jobs that also directly supports....
Do you trust them with your pension?! What will happen with your pension?!

They can't even follow their own blinking legal advice and not waste half a million quid in judicial reviews! As for independence is bigger then the party....... Its down to the elected government to negotiate it so it would end up a SNP shite show.

So no I don't think being in control of benefits is worth all of that given we have such a propped up economy. Let's get the economy back to a decent place and then go for it when we all aren't going to be plunged down the pan by doing so!

[quote Mylovelyhorsee]@DdraigGoch

I know many welsh people myself included who do not consider themselves British. I am not British, I find it really insulting to be called British. I do not identify with a country that anxed my country and forced a language and cultures on them because they felt the welsh people were “savages” so no I’m not British thank you very much. Therefore, I cannot support a Great Britain it has come from colonialism and it’s wrong.[/quote]
But Cymraeg is derived from the Brytthonic language spoken before any such Saxon invasion.

One thing I’ve always wondered about is why there seems to be a perception (and I may be completely wrong on this and am fully prepared to be told so!) on these threads that Scotland had nothing to do with the British Empire. Comments about the legacy of empire re country name etc as if it was an entirely English concept. Or the comment about Malta as if it only achieved independence from the English rather than the British Empire.

I’m not here to defend the British Empire, it committed hideous crimes against humanity and quite rightly should be judged harshly, any benefits cannot be justified against the weight of human suffering. As an English person I feel deeply uncomfortable and guilty about the privileges still influencing life today from the legacy of empire.

My point is it was a British Empire and that included the Scottish (and the other constituent nations). Scotland provided a high proportion of troops and administrative roles. It was incredibly active in the slave trade - we know slaves in the Caribbean were being forced to wear tartan. The Darien scheme was colonisation out and out before the act of the union.

We have to understand our role in history and as far as I’m concerned it’s not acceptable for Scotland to try and disingenuously pretend that empire was an English thing.

@Scottishskifun while I will wait, as I did in 2014, for the current financial analysis of the situation my answer to your question is yes I do trust them.

Their handling of education hasn't been inept. There are problems within the curriculum and within schools but those pale in comparison to the issues in England.

I trust them with my pension yes.

Targeted interventions have some small impact but if free school meals solved the attainment gap between the richest and the poorest then there would be no attainment gap.

In our school we have all sorts of sticking plasters funded by PEF - breakfast clubs, technology for kids, supported study, attainment tutors... I could go on. The poorest still do worse than their comfortable counterparts.

An independent Scotland would, by the nature of the voters have a more left leaning government and I genuinely believe that the poorest in our society would benefit from that. I would expect that high earners and relatively high earners would pay a bit more tax and honestly I'm okay with that.

@KnackeredUnicorn what's the empire got to do with it? Scotland did benefit hugely from the Empire sadly. Our history is as bloodstained as England's and it's a disgrace. I'm not sure what bearing it has on an independence vote.

@KnackeredUnicorn folk here know full well about the Empire and our place in it but folk in Scotland recognise that it is over and that many aspects of it were shameful. Most folk find all this talk of the Commonwealth outdated and were appalled by Windrush. Scotland is not as anti-immigration as other places in general and actually felt huge benefits to having Europeans and other nationalities join their communities. I'm not saying it's utopia, there are problems like everywhere, but overall there is increasingly the feeling in Scotland that this nation could develop relationships with other nations on an equal footing...and be part of the EU...as opposed to the current Westminster style of "diplomacy", which seems to be anything but diplomatic.

@forfucksakenett spot on

@forfucksakenett it's pretty inept to me to have shortage of teachers, friends who are teachers having to buy supplies from their own pocket just so they can do basic tasks and activities in the classroom. This is all under the SG control yet nothing has been done. How is a benefit system which the SG cannot afford going to improve long term prospects of children?! You improve prospects by focus on health, focus on education and focus on community outreach projects to encourage kids into apprenticeship, work, university. The SG has these under its controls yet just moans about Westminster! Probably to distract from the situation we are in!

The reasonably well paid already pay more tax in Scotland and if those large organisations leave (many of which did look at pulling out in 2014) then you have less of a pool of taxes to call on. Its basic maths.
The Scottish economy relies on financial sector (many nearly left Edinburgh in 2014), retail (currently down the toilet), hospitality (again down the toilet), tourism (trying to stay out of the toilet but struggling), oil and gas is most definitely out, whiskey exports.... Well a distillery doesn't employ masses of people, fishing again not masses and struggling.

Please would love to know where you see the money coming from to pay for it all. All I see is a struggling economy!
And wait for what in 2014 they couldn't even tell me what currency they would have SG insisted it would be the £ UK govt was a big fat no so can't see that one happening and we know that Spain will block fast EU entry so the Euro isn't a option either!

Maybe the SG should focus on fixing the mess we find ourselves in now rather than thinking independence is some kind of magic wand where everyone is going to skip around and be magically happily out of poverty which simply isn't true as there is barely an economy left at the moment!

Okay @Scottishskifun enlighten me as to how a school gets a pupil who has a chaotic home life exacerbated by living in extreme poverty to the same level as a peer who isn't living in poverty.

Education, and associated interventions, can help improve outcomes a bit but significant work has to be done in the home to improve the home life of that family.

That has to be done through creating a steady flow of income either through the creation of jobs or through a reliable benefit system.

I'm genuinely interested to hear how you think schools can really fix this?

It's a deep rooted social inequity. Challenging that has to start from birth. Do you have any idea the gap that already exists by the time they get to P1? Do you have any concept of how hard that is to claw back?

Yes I do and you bridge it by multiple means from health care professionals help in early years, encouraging nursery placements for poorer families and community programmes which equip the parents with skills. You give budgeting, cv help and teach the basics of how to cook cheap but nutritional meals.
I grew up in one of the worst and poorest parts of London. I know what poverty looks like my mum worked in a women's refuge near one of the worst council estates in London. She regularly did cooking lessons for instance teaching women how to survive on food costing no more then £1. I volunteered before I went to uni and whilst at uni helping with budgeting and housing support for disadvantaged families.

You improve prospects by improving health, education and jobs. You can’t improve jobs if there is no economy. You improve families by equipping them with the tools to survive and giving them hope and ambition that they are worth something.
Schools play a big part in helping children by giving them a hot meal, take an interest in children and their development. Sadly for many children you can have all the benefits in the world and it won't make a blind bit of difference to the way their parents treat them.
Teachers play a vital role in identifying children at risk, suffering from neglect.

I've lived in Scotland for over a decade, my son is born here, I pay my taxes here this is my home where I have lived the majority of my adult life. But I do know what true poverty is and do know that it requires multiple layers approach to improve outcomes the majority of which the SG is already in charge of. Not simply just benefits and the SG already has more support grants in place for families as well yet its still failing families.
Simply having more control over benefits isn't going to sort that problem and the SG can create jobs if it wishes to.

I’m a Scot and live in Scotland. Independence would fractionate Scotland further. At the moment it’s fractured into the central belt, highlands, the islands and the north east.Majority of the money goes to the central belt at the moment. This will be worse if we go independent. Too many people want independence for “sovereignty “ without knowing what the hell it means. It’s the wrong time.

Yes multiple means. The home life is as important as any other aspect and until we have a means to improve that we'll do nothing. We have a Tory government who have so little value for the families that need its support most that they have introduced some of the toughest benefit sanctions ever seen and bedroom tax. They don't give a shit about the poorest in society. If someone shows them who you are then believe it.

Health, education, jobs, social care, benefits system - all of it is required to make change.

For as long as Scotland is in charge of some aspects of government and not others it can only do half a job.

I work with these families day in and day out. We provide sticking plasters. Of course that does some good but we need a fundamental societal change that will NEVER come about in a Tory led government because that's not who they are.

@forfucksakenett

Yes multiple means. The home life is as important as any other aspect and until we have a means to improve that we'll do nothing. We have a Tory government who have so little value for the families that need its support most that they have introduced some of the toughest benefit sanctions ever seen and bedroom tax. They don't give a shit about the poorest in society. If someone shows them who you are then believe it.

Health, education, jobs, social care, benefits system - all of it is required to make change.

For as long as Scotland is in charge of some aspects of government and not others it can only do half a job.

I work with these families day in and day out. We provide sticking plasters. Of course that does some good but we need a fundamental societal change that will NEVER come about in a Tory led government because that's not who they are.

But Scotland is already in charge of all of the things that you say need improvement

Problem SNP have is all they are pushing for is independence and not actually running the country.

@MinnieMous3 then you haven't read my posts properly.

[quote forfucksakenett]@MinnieMous3 then you haven't read my posts properly. [/quote]
You seem to think the answer is rooted in inequality imposed by the tories. But there’s nothing you don’t have in Scotland that we have in England. And independence is likely to make the economy, and therefore social mobility, worse rather than better.

But there's noting you don't have in Scotland that we don't have in England.

Exactly. How on earth are we ever meant to change it if we don't elect a different type of government.

I disagree regarding the economy. I don't think it will be worse but as I've said repeatedly I'm hanging fire until I've seen some up to date analysis / expert opinions.

@forfucksakenett you keep going on about the bedroom tax except in Scotland this is covered by applying for the discretionsry home scheme so that families aren't worse off.

Benefits alone does not solve the family problems the SG have more than half in their armoury that they are in charge of. Yet in the last 12 months food bank use has trebled and would have been an awful lot worse without furlough scheme.

I think you will be waiting a long time for the SG to show you the finances as they will claim one aspect and the UK govt will simply say no we don't agree...... We have already had 2 huge impacts on the economic progress of Scotland, brexit and the pandemic.
Throwing in the third of independence is independence at any cost. You only need to look at the simple economics of the situation for yourself and ask yourself the biggest question where is the money going to come from when businesses are in such a poor state and hundreds of people are losing their jobs each week.
Scotland has no independent global credit rating score system to borrow large amounts of money. That's like giving an 18 year old on a bar job a 20K credit card it's not going to happen. They might get a 2K one with crazy interest rates!

The UK govt isn't going to pay and the original independence plan was based on oil industry earning over $100 a barrel and the tax.
I can tell you living in the region of oil and gas that there have been tens of thousands of job losses since 2014 and a barrel is lucky to get $40 barely any tax generated. Oh and by the way the tax payer has to pay a chunk of decommissioning costs. If the SG insist oil and gas is theirs in Scottish waters then you can guarantee that the UK govt will then refuse for English tax payers to be paying the decom costs!

I suggest reading some economic papers.

@Scottishskifun

I am well aware that the bedroom tax is covered by the SG but the imposition of it in the first place gives you a measure of the UK government's mentality. That's why I mention it. That money could be used elsewhere by the SG.

As I have said several times it's everything together that makes a difference. The SG don't have control of everything. If they did then we would have, in an independent Scotland, a government that was genuinely interested in and able to tackle economic inequality. Tories, by their very nature, are more interested in keeping the rich rich. A Scottish electorate would have very little interest in that.

As there was last time round there will be economic analysis and figures to look at. I'll look forward to reading it all.

I haven't said a word about oil but thanks for throwing that in there and I'm impressed by your crystal ball that lets you see how Scotland will be viewed as a borrower.

I'm not for independence at any cost as I've explained to you several times now but you seem to only be interested in hearing what you want to hear 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think independence is the route to a better and fairer Scotland. Lots of others think the same. You don't and that's absolutely fine of course. We'll just need to see what happens.

Would this be the second once in a generation vote in a generation?

As normal, the SNP just seem to be after independence at any cost, or at least cost to the English. They lose this one, it will be indy ref 3. Then 4. And so on.

Have the Spanish given any indication that they'd do anything other than veto any application to join? Why would they when if they say yes join, it green lights Catalonia to push for their independence.

The 'once in a lifetime/generation' comment was neither a promise nor legally binding.

It was an effort from AS to get the voters out to vote. It was campaign material.

There has been a significant material change since then anyway 🤷🏻‍♀️

Catalonia is a region and Scotland is a country. That's a huge difference. Independence for Scotland green lights nothing for Catalonia. Spain will continue to oppress and control them sadly.

The 'once in a lifetime/generation' comment was neither a promise nor legally binding.

Ahhh so it’s okay for the SNP to lie, but when BJ makes false promises, it isn’t. Gotcha!

@MinnieMous3 it was quite literally a comment that appeared twice in the vision for an independent Scotland book. It's basically poor motivational speech in an effort to get people out to vote. I can only assume that people are being deliberately obtuse when they pull out this line. How does one even define a generation?

To be fair though had the last ten years been a little bit better and hadn't included

• a benefits system that deliberately punishes the poor and weak
• the proliferation of food banks at an alarming rate (even before covid)
• the Ever increasing gap between the rich and poor
• a brexit campaign that was shown to be filled with lies (literally proven in a court of law)
• the actual Brexit process

Then maybe it would've waited for a generation, whatever that may be. As it is, I understand the renewed vigour with which it is being pursued to be honest.