To think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

[MinnieMous3]

Inspired by another thread, do you think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

As in, independence for independence’s sake rather than because it will actually benefit the country, leaving everyone in an expensive mess?

There seem to be so many parallels - a leader who is good at the battle cry but seems unable to produce a clear plan of what would happen afterwards, paranoia that the union in question is ‘out to get’ them in some way, and complete denial of the perks of being part of it.

I know this may get heated so please play nicely!

And there was me thinking this would be a bloodbath 😂

😂😂 I knew this would be you! Do you also post under Wondermule?

No, they’re different. A massive swathe of Brexit was anti-foreigner, xenophobia and ignorance.

Some Scottish people (not me, I always have to point out) want independence because Scotland has different societal ideals to England, and because Scottish vote is routinely and systematically ignored.

@Pumperthepumper

😂😂 I knew this would be you! Do you also post under Wondermule?

No, they’re different. A massive swathe of Brexit was anti-foreigner, xenophobia and ignorance.

Some Scottish people (not me, I always have to point out) want independence because Scotland has different societal ideals to England, and because Scottish vote is routinely and systematically ignored.

I did wonder if you would be first to post! I shall see what others have to say before we engage in a dual!

We don’t have to ‘duel’ - again, I don’t want independence. I think it would be a financial disaster for my country.

I doubt this thread will last long though, you seem to have made all the points you wanted to make on the other thread and they don’t like that here.

@Pumperthepumper

We don’t have to ‘duel’ - again, I don’t want independence. I think it would be a financial disaster for my country.

I doubt this thread will last long though, you seem to have made all the points you wanted to make on the other thread and they don’t like that here.

If it doesn’t than it’s doesn’t 🤷🏼‍♀️ I’m just finding it interesting discussing the topic at the moment.

I don’t think they are comparable in the sense that Brexit was just us leaving a trading block (ho ho ho, if it was just a trading bloc then Brexit would never have happened) whereas the Scottish separatists want to break up a 300 year old country.
But in the sense that there are people who believe it “transcends everything” regardless of unintended consequences, yes pretty similar to both sides of the Brexit debate. Like most of the big debates I suppose.

Some Scottish people (not me, I always have to point out) want independence because Scotland has different societal ideals to England, and because Scottish vote is routinely and systematically ignored

To me that sounds exactly what Brexit was about and you cannot tell me there isn’t massive amounts of anti-English feeling which equates to anti-foreigner in the Brexit vote. I think they are both ‘feelings’ driven movements rather than calm rational decisions for most voters.

I mean, is it like Brexit in that it would mean a dislocation of something, and a protacted period of negotiation? Sure.

In a lot of other ways, no.

I don't even know why I'm getting sucked into a second thread on this.

I must have stronger resolve!

@Enb76

Some Scottish people (not me, I always have to point out) want independence because Scotland has different societal ideals to England, and because Scottish vote is routinely and systematically ignored

To me that sounds exactly what Brexit was about and you cannot tell me there isn’t massive amounts of anti-English feeling which equates to anti-foreigner in the Brexit vote. I think they are both ‘feelings’ driven movements rather than calm rational decisions for most voters.

There isn’t massive amounts of anti-English feeling though - are you in Scotland? I’m fairly central and our biggest divide is religion (football), not nationality.

And I’d disagree it’s about feelings - in the main it’s Scottish votes being a complete waste of effort.

@UnderHisAye

I mean, is it like Brexit in that it would mean a dislocation of something, and a protacted period of negotiation? Sure.

In a lot of other ways, no.

I don't even know why I'm getting sucked into a second thread on this.

I must have stronger resolve!

Oh god me too. I can’t fucking wait until lockdown is over and I’ve actually got something better to do.

whereas the Scottish separatists want to break up a 300 year old country

Which 300 year old country are you talking about?

I'm part Scottish (mum was), but never lived there. I wouldn't like to see Scotland leave the UK, but if they have another indy and get it then good luck to them if that's what they choose.

But wouldn't Scotland have to be on its own and not part of the EU? Own currency and have to apply to join the EU once they have?

The Royal Navy and Royal Air force would also have to pull all assets out of Scotland too, causing mass job losses and leaving Scotland with no defence etc

I genuinely didn’t see many ways Brexit would benefit us although I admit I am very glad we made the vaccine choices we did. However, I’m really stumped at how Scotland and the rest of the U.K. will benefit from splitting (although I can appreciate some of the reasons why Scotland wants to). Interested to hear from those with a better understanding.

But wouldn't Scotland have to be on its own and not part of the EU? Own currency and have to apply to join the EU once they have?

This is largely what I don’t get because I don’t think there is a guarantee (and arguably a likelihood of) Scotland being accepted into the EU now. So it would be Scotland on its own.

*whereas the Scottish separatists want to break up a 300 year old country

Which 300 year old country are you talking about?*

Good summary

@SoWhyNot

But wouldn't Scotland have to be on its own and not part of the EU? Own currency and have to apply to join the EU once they have?

This is largely what I don’t get because I don’t think there is a guarantee (and arguably a likelihood of) Scotland being accepted into the EU now. So it would be Scotland on its own.

Well the SNP wants to keep the pound sterling (from the Bank of England). The cynic in me thinks this is because they know the rest of the U.K. will then always have an obligation to bail them out to stop our currency devaluing, whether they call themselves ‘independent’ or not.

The currency was created for the Union not individual countries, you wouldn’t be able to keep the euro if you left the EU and this shouldn’t be any different.

@Whammyyammy

I'm part Scottish (mum was), but never lived there. I wouldn't like to see Scotland leave the UK, but if they have another indy and get it then good luck to them if that's what they choose.

But wouldn't Scotland have to be on its own and not part of the EU? Own currency and have to apply to join the EU once they have?

The Royal Navy and Royal Air force would also have to pull all assets out of Scotland too, causing mass job losses and leaving Scotland with no defence etc

The military and other assets would have to be separated.

There isn’t massive amounts of anti-English feeling though - are you in Scotland? I’m fairly central and our biggest divide is religion (football), not nationality

Never heard a Scot say anything about the English - just about the government they choose. Many Scots are married to English people or have family living in England. The 'hate fest' is simply not happening - but that isn't to say you wont find the occasional nut job spouting hate stuff just as you can anywhere .......like when Boris Johnson allowed a hate filled anti Scots poem filled with Holocaust references to be published in The Spectator........oh wait, then Johnson was voted into the office of Prime Minister largely on an English vote.

The military and other assets would have to be separated.

Do you think Scottish soldiers in the British army would suddenly be happy to form a Scottish army? I would’ve assumed most were Unionists. Please do correct me if I’m wrong.

@SoWhyNot

But wouldn't Scotland have to be on its own and not part of the EU? Own currency and have to apply to join the EU once they have?

This is largely what I don’t get because I don’t think there is a guarantee (and arguably a likelihood of) Scotland being accepted into the EU now. So it would be Scotland on its own.

I think NS has been selling it as straight out of the U.K. pan and into the EU wok.

Scotland’s current finances wouldn’t qualify it for EU membership. And I doubt the EU would want to take on a new country that would probably need a lot of financial propping up. It is there to protect its own interests at the end of the day, it isn’t a benevolent organisation.

I agree there are similarities between brexit and the Scottish independence debate. I understand the desire to determine the destiny of your country, but ultimately I think Scottish independence is driven by the opposite desire to brexit - to make Scotland a country that can welcome the rest of the world in, whereas brexit seems to be more insular in its ideals.

I wasn't against brexit and I think the UK could thrive outside of the EU, except for the people driving it are more interested in lining their own pockets and stirring up divisions. They're setting up generations of wealth for themselves and don't appear to care what they destroy in the process.

I don't recognise the Scotland that many unionists speak about on mumsnet. I'm English, though I've lived here since I was a child. My parents are English with accents and when I asked them if they had ever experienced negativity they told me they never had in 35 years of being here! I'd get the odd jibe at school, but when I briefly attended high school in England, I got Scottish jibes too! It's a small sample but it's my experience, I've never felt the need to hide my 'Englishness' (not that it's a thing tbh).

My personal favoured outcome would be that the UK would stay together and become a much more progressive, left leaning (dare I say socialist) country but I don't see that happening so I reckon my only option is to vote for indie and hope it happens in Scotland. Saying that, I think this is an idiotic time to pursue it, much the same as brexit was!

@MinnieMous3

The military and other assets would have to be separated.

Do you think Scottish soldiers in the British army would suddenly be happy to form a Scottish army? I would’ve assumed most were Unionists. Please do correct me if I’m wrong.

I haven't got the faintest clue how they feel about the Union as a whole, but those that are free to leave can do so, and those who are still serving the time they signed up for would presumably have to complete their term.

Excellent post @goldenshoe

The military and other assets would have to be separated.

But the military has always been controlled from Westminster and not devolved? Can't see Westminster giving away multi million pounds assets as a leaving gift.

I don't like the very right wing direction this country is going in. I would vote for Scottish independence and intend to.

Like a PP said, we are an open and welcoming country and have made several changes in the last few years to match up more with the Nordic models where people are happier. I don't believe in utopia but I do believe in self determination and striving for a better standard of living and kinder societies.