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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

269 replies

MinnieMous3 · 25/03/2021 15:26

Inspired by another thread, do you think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

As in, independence for independence’s sake rather than because it will actually benefit the country, leaving everyone in an expensive mess?

There seem to be so many parallels - a leader who is good at the battle cry but seems unable to produce a clear plan of what would happen afterwards, paranoia that the union in question is ‘out to get’ them in some way, and complete denial of the perks of being part of it.

I know this may get heated so please play nicely!

OP posts:
Corcory · 25/03/2021 23:55

It's interesting how the SNP are now so keen on the EU given the party was dead against the Common Market when they were originally formed. Many older SNP voters voted leave and certainly don't want to go back into the EU.
As for the the racist language of SNP supporters, I've found that it's not the English per say they are so against but the Tory party. They vial stuff pouring out of perfectly respectable people in my village when one person dared to put out a Conservative banner at the last UK election was abhorrent.Some time later the conservative supporter showed an interest in joining a committee I am on but I was told by one person she didn't like people in big houses joining village groups and another said that putting up the banner was a problem - given this was from an SNP supporter who displayed her own banners and had a flag pole installed in her garden it was more than a bit ironic! When I made the mistake of congratulating the winning conservative candidate on face book you would not believe what sort of hatred was thrown at me. The sort of stuff they put up on social media is vile nasty rubbish, which, if it was against a religious or ethnic group would be a criminal offence but because it's about
Tories then it's alright. The SNP really can be so nasty in their hate of anything to do with Westminster and Conservatives.

SixesAndEights · 26/03/2021 00:01

@Maria53

From what I gather , whisht for Indy seems to be the idea that everything unsatisfactory about the Scottish government is being deliberately ignored by independence supporters because independence is the only issue that matters.

The Celtic Alliance (I think it's called) is the idea that the (ultimately) independent nations of Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Man, Brittany and Cornwall club together for specific strategic purposes.

Borisisafecklesstoad · 26/03/2021 00:10

I imagine it would be like Brexit in the sense that it is so horribly polarising. I wish the SNP would stop this for now to be fair. Literally the world is fricking burning down right now! Fix, rebuilt and then talk about change, I would want at least 70% to vote for independence (and Brexit for that matter but hey ho) to know it's a genuine will of the people otherwise we will have another festering resentment disaster (much like Brexit)
Truly, as someone who's children's whole lives have been spent worryingwhether or not their dad can stay in the country I would love some stability and a few years just dealing with the shitshow around us before more independence chat

SixesAndEights · 26/03/2021 00:12

Lesley Riddoch and film makers Charlie Stuart (Estonia) and Phantom Power Films (Iceland, Norway, Faroe Islands) made a series of films about how those countries made successes of their independence from other states.

lesleyriddoch.com/films

TheSandman · 26/03/2021 00:38

@Pumperthepumper

😂😂 I knew this would be you! Do you also post under Wondermule?

No, they’re different. A massive swathe of Brexit was anti-foreigner, xenophobia and ignorance.

Some Scottish people (not me, I always have to point out) want independence because Scotland has different societal ideals to England, and because Scottish vote is routinely and systematically ignored.

No, they’re different. A massive swathe of Brexit was anti-foreigner, xenophobia and ignorance.

Some Scottish people (not me, I always have to point out) want independence because Scotland has different societal ideals to England, and because Scottish vote is routinely and systematically ignored.

And a lot of English people (like me) who live in Scotland want independence because Scotland has different societal ideals to England, and because Scottish vote is routinely and systematically ignored. Brexit being a bloody good example. The fact that the UK government is taking the Scottish government to court to remove the newly adopted UN Convention on the Rights of the Child from our statute book is another.

www.togetherscotland.org.uk/about-childrens-rights/monitoring-the-uncrc/incorporation-of-the-un-convention-on-the-rights-of-the-child/

It's a measure that was passed unanimously, supported by all parties INCLUDING the Scottish Tory Party.... which just goes to show you the Westminster Conservatives will even shit on their own - if they're Scottish.

I live in the Highlands and have done for 30 years. I have never encountered 'Anti-English attitudes. Anti TORY attitudes and anti Westmisterism by the bucketload but never any Englishness.

TheSandman · 26/03/2021 00:45

It's interesting how the SNP are now so keen on the EU given the party was dead against the Common Market when they were originally formed.

I don't know if you have noticed but things do change. The world changes. Ideas change. It wasn't THAT long ago the Labour party were all for unilateral nuclear disarmament and the Lib Dems had principles.

SixesAndEights · 26/03/2021 00:53

It's interesting how the SNP are now so keen on the EU given the party was dead against the Common Market when they were originally formed.

The SNP was founded in 1934.

DdraigGoch · 26/03/2021 05:11

Likewise, the Brexit result was crying out for compromise, and we could easily have had it.
Indeed, leading figures in the Leave campaign such as Daniel Hannan put EFTA forward as a compromise option. Then along came remain-voting Prime Minister Theresa May who had no idea why people voted to leave and killed the idea off.

GreenlandTheMovie · 26/03/2021 07:48

@Corcory

It's interesting how the SNP are now so keen on the EU given the party was dead against the Common Market when they were originally formed. Many older SNP voters voted leave and certainly don't want to go back into the EU. As for the the racist language of SNP supporters, I've found that it's not the English per say they are so against but the Tory party. They vial stuff pouring out of perfectly respectable people in my village when one person dared to put out a Conservative banner at the last UK election was abhorrent.Some time later the conservative supporter showed an interest in joining a committee I am on but I was told by one person she didn't like people in big houses joining village groups and another said that putting up the banner was a problem - given this was from an SNP supporter who displayed her own banners and had a flag pole installed in her garden it was more than a bit ironic! When I made the mistake of congratulating the winning conservative candidate on face book you would not believe what sort of hatred was thrown at me. The sort of stuff they put up on social media is vile nasty rubbish, which, if it was against a religious or ethnic group would be a criminal offence but because it's about Tories then it's alright. The SNP really can be so nasty in their hate of anything to do with Westminster and Conservatives.
Yes, there is definately an intolerance in respect of differing views that is apparent in Scotland now. The idea that Scotland has different societal values is dangerous because that reasoning allows for all sorts of things in its pursuance, such as the First Minister being found by the Scottish Parliament to have misled it.

It's an attitude I've come across multiple times. This sense of jealousy of anyone who is perceived to have done better than them, or to somehow be priveleged in some way, or even just different, justifies punishment through higher taxes or restrictions on their lives. Its reminiscent of the former Eastern European countries, as is some if the legislation designed to control peoples' lives pouring out of the SP.

Many property owners in Edinburgh are in despair about what their council will do next. The council wants to "crack down" on holiday let's, so they are all to be licensed and inspected now, which simply means that there will be less availability of accommodation for people visiting Edinburgh so prices will go up and it will mean staying in an expensive hotel room rather than a bijou small apartment.

Some owners are just recovering from the statutory notices scam, where you had pensioners living alone facing £90,000 nils for communal repairs to replace their building's entire roof that weren't really necessary but were ordained by Edinburgh Council are farmed out to their favoured contractors to be vastly overcharged and shoddily done. I think only 4 people were ever jailed for it.

It's just not a very nice country to live in now. I feel in a constant state of anxiety about which piece of legislation to control my life will be passed next. Public services and education are dire, and there is a worrying underlying rhetoric that is poles apart from the Conservative with a small "c" approach of the Scandinavian countries, which only works with high taxation because there are extremely low levels of corruption and a lot of trust in government.

I think an independent Scotland would lose an awful lot of bright, talented people to England and abroad, because living in a country where you are constantly being told that being ambitious and working hard to have a better lifestyle is bad or "priveleged" is very draining.

MinnieMous3 · 26/03/2021 07:54

The comparisons with Scandinavia are ludicrous. The Scandinavian countries are enormous compared to Scotland, and therefore have much more abundant natural resources.

I saw a post earlier comparing an independent Scotland to the Faroe Isles. A slightly better comparison but the Faroes are part of the Danish kingdom.

OP posts:
GreenlandTheMovie · 26/03/2021 08:05

@MinnieMous3

The comparisons with Scandinavia are ludicrous. The Scandinavian countries are enormous compared to Scotland, and therefore have much more abundant natural resources.

I saw a post earlier comparing an independent Scotland to the Faroe Isles. A slightly better comparison but the Faroes are part of the Danish kingdom.

I think that might not be a comparison that would go down too well OP! Perhaps more similar to Estonia, or Latvia.

The Faroe Islands actially make an interesting comparison though. Under Danish autonomous rule (and funding), they have a population that is double the size of Shetland, further south and with better weather. And of Orkney, further south still and with rich agricultural land. The Faroe islands have tunnels linking most of the islands and a real population boom, while Shetland has a population around half of that which it did in the mid 19th century.

Shetland has been in a decline since becoming part of Scotland in the 15th century, which saw particularly cruel Scottish earls appointed, very different from the previous Norwegian rule which encouraged outright ownership of land (not feudalism) and a system of governance which allowed everyone to have their say. Not to mention trading with the Hanseatic league, which the Scottish state quickly made illegal, signalling a long term downturn in finances.

I think that history, along with a strong support for the genuinely Liberal values of personal freedom and minimal state control are why Shetland has never returned an SNP MSP or MP.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/03/2021 12:15

As usual the narrative of these threads especially off the OP tends to have an un pleasant subtext to it

England, assest strips the spouse, financially abuses the spouse and then gaslights when the spouse has decided on divorce, all I can hope for is that scottish independance gives Wales the push it needs to get out of this disgusting polyamorous abusive relationship

MinnieMous3 · 26/03/2021 12:20

@JustAnotherPoster00

As usual the narrative of these threads especially off the OP tends to have an un pleasant subtext to it

England, assest strips the spouse, financially abuses the spouse and then gaslights when the spouse has decided on divorce, all I can hope for is that scottish independance gives Wales the push it needs to get out of this disgusting polyamorous abusive relationship

...and all without any evidence whatsoever 🙄
OP posts:
Seventrees · 26/03/2021 13:20

The new licensing rules aren't just about Edinburgh - it's the whole of Scotland. They will make it far far more difficult and more expensive to run a small tourism business here, and will put off tourists from staying in Scotland. So the Scottish government is desperate for independence. And has big financial problems. Made far worse by the devastation caused to Scotland's main industry (tourism) due to Covid. Its response is to put massive new obstacles in place for the tourism industry. These are people who don't have a clue. It's all about their own personal power, plus ideology.

Seventrees · 26/03/2021 13:26

I agree about the disapproval of people who want to stretch themselves. The education is about everyone reaching the same basic targets and not expecting to go beyond them. There's no sense of needing to help or even just encourage young people to reach their potential. Why would anyone want or expect to go beyond the basic targets? That's not necessary. You're up yourself.

Seventrees · 26/03/2021 13:27

So I worry about where the high achievers will come from if independence happens. What happens to a country that has no high achievers, because the education system has deliberately held them back?

HeadNorth · 26/03/2021 14:01

I am a Scot living in Scotland. I think Scottish independence would be far far worse than Brexit and an even bigger and costlier mistake. Let's come together folks, not splinter apart.

OhWhyNot · 26/03/2021 14:25

Alex Salmond launching a new party this may split the independence voters or could attract more ...

MinnieMous3 · 26/03/2021 14:27

@OhWhyNot

Alex Salmond launching a new party this may split the independence voters or could attract more ...
Oh, really? Let’s hope this new party will be able to tell the difference between a man and a woman. I really feel for Scottish women and the SNP’s treatment of them. I feel the tide is turning down here, but up there they seem determined to be as ‘woke’ as possible.
OP posts:
GreenlandTheMovie · 26/03/2021 14:34

@Seventrees

So I worry about where the high achievers will come from if independence happens. What happens to a country that has no high achievers, because the education system has deliberately held them back?
To be fair, that already happens quite a bit in Scotland...

Some move to London or Manchester to work, or abroad.

UnderHisAye · 26/03/2021 14:35

Somehow I don't think women are going to be better served by voting for a man who admits to inappropriate sexual behaviour with female subordinates. Ewww.

Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 14:37

Oh, really? Let’s hope this new party will be able to tell the difference between a man and a woman. I really feel for Scottish women and the SNP’s treatment of them. I feel the tide is turning down here, but up there they seem determined to be as ‘woke’ as possible.

I doubt women are going to get better treatment from Alex Salmond.

MinnieMous3 · 26/03/2021 14:40

@Pumperthepumper

Oh, really? Let’s hope this new party will be able to tell the difference between a man and a woman. I really feel for Scottish women and the SNP’s treatment of them. I feel the tide is turning down here, but up there they seem determined to be as ‘woke’ as possible.

I doubt women are going to get better treatment from Alex Salmond.

Fair point 😂 he was cleared though wasn’t he?
OP posts:
DdraigGoch · 26/03/2021 14:40

@OhWhyNot

Alex Salmond launching a new party this may split the independence voters or could attract more ...
Which one is the People's Front of Judea?
Whammyyammy · 26/03/2021 15:09

@HeadNorth

I am a Scot living in Scotland. I think Scottish independence would be far far worse than Brexit and an even bigger and costlier mistake. Let's come together folks, not splinter apart.
Totally agree. I think a split woukd be detrimental to the majority of people on both sides of the border.
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