To think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

[MinnieMous3]

Inspired by another thread, do you think Scottish Independence would be like a second Brexit?

As in, independence for independence’s sake rather than because it will actually benefit the country, leaving everyone in an expensive mess?

There seem to be so many parallels - a leader who is good at the battle cry but seems unable to produce a clear plan of what would happen afterwards, paranoia that the union in question is ‘out to get’ them in some way, and complete denial of the perks of being part of it.

I know this may get heated so please play nicely!

Absolutely! Once it started to become clear how it wld work and the reality of everything folk wld regret it. Voting for independence is voting for the unknown.

I think there are so many snp voters that are all for independence at any cost. Certainly that is all the snp are interested in and I don't think they'd know what to do if they actually got it!

I hate that Nicola Sturgeons tries to imply that because Scotland mainly voted no to brexit that it means we shld be independent! I voted no to both and so did almost all my friends and family. I don't know anyone that voted no to brexit and yes to independence.

@Whammyyammy

You don't think Scotland's taxes contribute to the defence spending?

Yes of course, contributed to a military force for the union. But if you choose to leave that union .....

So a 'local' army for 'local' people? Much the same sentiment as suggested on the other thread about the O/Az vaccine then?

@YNK I don’t understand, do you think Scotland should create its own forces upon independence? If not why should the U.K. continue to protect it?

My reasons for wanting independence are really nothing to do with emotion @Seventrees

That kind of comment is why Scottish people generally feel patronised.

@Whammyyammy

The Royal Navy and Royal Air force would also have to pull all assets out of Scotland too, causing mass job losses and leaving Scotland with no defence etc

This has already happened, maybe 10 years ago?Westminster decided to reduced all Scottish defence. They disbanded the Black Watch & made them join English defences. Our RAF has been reduced to almost nothing so our air bases have had to shut. Trident nuclear weapons has been forced upon Scotland (no nuclear weapons of any sort stored in England) with our rights to protest about it has been squashed by a bill put through Westminster- all by English MPs. And folks wonder why the Marjorie of Scots want independence from Westminster.

The "300 year old Treaty" is not worth the paper is was written on. The treaty was bought by English bribes & lies.

I can’t see for a moment it will, but what happens if the EU crumbles and countries like Germany and France leave. Would leaving the U.K. be so appealing then? From what I understand, and please do correct me if I’m wrong, but it feels to me many see leaving Scotland to be rejoining the EU as a separate country.

This has already happened, maybe 10 years ago?Westminster decided to reduced all Scottish defence. They disbanded the Black Watch & made them join English defences. Our RAF has been reduced to almost nothing so our air bases have had to shut. Trident nuclear weapons has been forced upon Scotland (no nuclear weapons of any sort stored in England) with our rights to protest about it has been squashed by a bill put through Westminster- all by English MPs. And folks wonder why the Marjorie of Scots want independence from Westminster. The "300 year old Treaty" is not worth the paper is was written on. The treaty was bought by English bribes & lies.

Don’t let facts stand in the way of your William Wallace moment firstly there’s no such thing as ‘Scottish defence’. Should Scotland be attacked, the U.K. army as a whole would defend it. It’s not like they’ve removed in situ defence when you’re facing down an enemy.

Re the Black Watch, what on Earth are you talking about? Only 2 days ago it was confirmed there would be no cuts to them, and nor were they forced to join English regiments. They are still based in Scotland. There was a rumour last year they would be disbanded but it’s been dismissed.

As for Trident, forced upon Scotland? Just because the SNP would do away with it, doesn’t mean it’s been forced upon you. What an odd comment. If it’s forced upon you then it’s forced upon all of us.

Please do tell me about the protest rights that have been removed from you?

Not really as there are probably many people who really couldn’t give a Scooby whether Scotland becomes independent or not
Mind you the thought of never hearing Nicola Sturgeons whining again is very appealing

[quote MinnieMous3]@YNK I don’t understand, do you think Scotland should create its own forces upon independence? If not why should the U.K. continue to protect it?[/quote]
I'll leave the decisions to the elected politicians to negotiate, but I'm more interested in this 'local for local' people sentiment.
Without Scotland as a member the UK will be up for an overhaul that could result in England gaining it's own independence.
If that happens who knows how Englands armed forces would look - maybe a 'local' army for 'local' people is what is wanted, I don't know.
I wouldn't presume to speak for any individual nation if the yoon dissolves, but I'd like to know more about how you see assets being divided.

Well Scotland are £1 billion in debt to the U.K. purse at the moment,

Scotland has no debt as it can't borrow, it has to run to budget.

The £billion 'debt' you mention is what WM chooses to attach to Scotland for it's part of the UK spending. What you might find interesting is that any product which begins its journey in Scotland, whisky and oil for example, but leave via England, is considered to be tax gained from 'other sources' rather than Scotland.

Why might that be? Do you think WM might want folk to believe that Scotland is too poor to cope alone?

@Chocolatedeficitdisorder

Well Scotland are £1 billion in debt to the U.K. purse at the moment,

Scotland has no debt as it can't borrow, it has to run to budget.

The £billion 'debt' you mention is what WM chooses to attach to Scotland for it's part of the UK spending. What you might find interesting is that any product which begins its journey in Scotland, whisky and oil for example, but leave via England, is considered to be tax gained from 'other sources' rather than Scotland.

Why might that be? Do you think WM might want folk to believe that Scotland is too poor to cope alone?

No, the U.K. purse had to bail Holyrood out £1 billion last year as they messed up their income taxes - they basically didn’t tax people enough in order to look good, ended up with a financial black hole and had to ask WM for the money 😬

And people trust them to negotiate membership of the EU or an exit settlement with the U.K.? Plus budget for a new armed forces etc? Madness

I'll leave the decisions to the elected politicians to negotiate,

😂😂😂 oh dear...

All 4 counties of the UK have their own strengths and weakness, both in politics, finance etc etc. But as a United Kingdom the strengths are what count. As an individual its the weaknesses that fail you.

That's my opinion anyway fwiw, and I don't want to see the UK break up, nor did I want to leave the EU.... but 🤷‍♂️.

Quite a bit of the SNP vote is based on anti-English, xenophobia and ignorance

Rubbish.
You might as well say to balance it ...
Quite a bit of the pro Brexit vote was based on anti Europe, xenophobia and ignorance

@StoneofDestiny

Quite a bit of the SNP vote is based on anti-English, xenophobia and ignorance

Rubbish.
You might as well say to balance it ...
Quite a bit of the pro Brexit vote was based on anti Europe, xenophobia and ignorance

In saying the latter you’ve affirmed the former.

Brexit went:
-Voted leave
-Negotiated terms
-left

Lots of people thought there should have been another vote after the terms were finalised. I think most SNP supporters wanted that. Will that happen with Scotland?
-Vote leave
-Negotiate terms
-Confirmation vote
-Leave/stay

[quote mamaweebeastie]@Whammyyammy

The Royal Navy and Royal Air force would also have to pull all assets out of Scotland too, causing mass job losses and leaving Scotland with no defence etc

This has already happened, maybe 10 years ago?Westminster decided to reduced all Scottish defence. They disbanded the Black Watch & made them join English defences. Our RAF has been reduced to almost nothing so our air bases have had to shut. Trident nuclear weapons has been forced upon Scotland (no nuclear weapons of any sort stored in England) with our rights to protest about it has been squashed by a bill put through Westminster- all by English MPs. And folks wonder why the Marjorie of Scots want independence from Westminster.

The "300 year old Treaty" is not worth the paper is was written on. The treaty was bought by English bribes & lies. [/quote]
The Black Watch were merged into the Royal Regiment of Scotland because the British Army is too small these days to maintain as many regiments as it once had. They continue to recruit in the same areas as they have always done and continue to be garrisoned in Fort George, near Inverness. I've no idea what you are talking about when you say they were "made to join English defences".

Funnily enough the Army and the RAF are indeed much smaller than they once were. The Cold War is over, that's why the air bases are shut.

"No nuclear weapons of any sort stored in England"? Nothing in Berkshire where they're maintained then?

Right at the top of this thread, a poster said that Brexit came from "xenophobia and ignorance". If mamaweebeastie is an example of a typical "Yes" voter, I think that we can safely say that the same applies to the question of Scottish seccession.

@Mysterian

Brexit went: -Voted leave -Negotiated terms -left

Lots of people thought there should have been another vote after the terms were finalised. I think most SNP supporters wanted that. Will that happen with Scotland?
-Vote leave
-Negotiate terms
-Confirmation vote
-Leave/stay

People only want a second referendum if the first one didn't go their way. The 2014 vote was "once in a generation". It didn't go the SNP's way so became unfinished business. You can bet that if "Yes" gets 50.0001% of the vote in a Scexit referendum that the SNP will fight tooth and nail to oppose any suggestion that there should be another vote.

If sturgeon actually ran the country rather than harping on about independence, I'd maybe vote for independence. If she could actually prove to me that she can do the job correctly, I'd trust her.

But she's proven she can't. She told us to judge her on education. Our education system is now amongst the worst in the world. It's shockingly bad, and we aren't building enough new schools to keep up with the amount of bloody houses they keep building.

She also runs the NHS in Scotland. That has gone downhill too badly, especially up here. We seem to be just forgotten about. Services are getting cut where they are needed. Police is in a bad shape too.

Then there's the whole inquiry situation. She's lied so many times on that I don't think she even knows what lies she's told anymore.

I can't trust her to run this country on her own. She will ruin it so badly and I dont want to see that happen. She thinks she'll get all the perks of being part of the UK without being 'dictated' too by England. That won't happen. We will get bugger all from the UK. I wouldn't share anything, especially military. You want to leave, bye, have fun on your own. Can't expect to keep stuff.

@rosie1959

Not really as there are probably many people who really couldn’t give a Scooby whether Scotland becomes independent or not Mind you the thought of never hearing Nicola Sturgeons whining again is very appealing

I like your thinking. Listening to her makes me think that Hadrian had the right idea.

This thing about 'Scottish votes being ignored'. Is this partly because, at present, Scotland is tending to return a large number of SNP candidates to Westminster? Nothing wrong with that, of course, but the SNP doesn't stand in 90% of WM constituencies. Therefore it will never have anywhere near an outright majority.

In a coalition, the SNP would (presumably) insist on an IndyRef. That makes it hard for any party to enter a coalition with the SNP, because no UK-wide party is going to campaign in support of independence. Therefore, when the referendum happens, the coalition will be split - which, regardless of the result of the Indy poll, is not good for the larger UK-wide party in that coalition.

On that basis, it would seem that Scottish votes are ignored at WM because Scotland votes in large numbers for a party that will never be a major player at WM. Now, we can argue about the need to change how the WM parliament is constituted, but that's a different debate.

As for independence, as a British citizen (and, sporting rivalries aside, I regard myself as British more than English), I'd be sad to see Scotland leave. However, if I lived in Scotland I might be more sympathetic to a Scottish government than the omnishambles at Westminster since at least 2010. I suspect an independent Scotland would be bad from my personal point of view, but possibly an improvement for Scotland.

Like brexit, the first Scots indy was vote was split. Always gonna be lovers and winners.
With brexit the 'winners' are now having second thoughts now they've got what they voted for, would be the same in Scotland

If it's to be like Brexit do we all get a vote

@Whammyyammy

Like brexit, the first Scots indy was vote was split. Always gonna be lovers and winners. With brexit the 'winners' are now having second thoughts now they've got what they voted for, would be the same in Scotland

I think once the emotions settled down and they realised feeling patriotic doesn’t actually translate into tangible benefits, there would be regret.

@rosie1959

If it's to be like Brexit do we all get a vote

Hmm well the EU didn’t get a vote so I expect not! However if they choose to leave, they should pay the divorce bill.